Democratic leaders wrestling with health care legislation are confronting a host of knotty issues such as medical malpractice, abortion, illegal immigrants and Medicaid, all the while predicting passage of sweeping health care legislation within a few months.
Article Source: msnbc.com
from:msnbc.comDems answer Obama's call on health care
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Seeded on Fri Sep 11, 2009 11:04 AM EDT (msnbc.com)
— Filed under: politics, obama, health-care, democrats, president, legislation, medicaid, senate-finance
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Start over and Reform the HealthCare process. We want reform, not a government mandated, bloated, budget busting Public Option run as terribly as most other government socialized programs.
Current Gallup poll: 36% for, 39% against ObamaCare.
Unless I'm mistaken 39 is a bigger number than 36. But The majority doesn't matter anymore I guess.
I really hate Washington right now.
We should ignore republicans. They routinely vote against their own best interests. They are being led by those who are in the pocket of the Health Care industry.
So far their objections are based on bald faced lies that would fool only a four year old and a republican.
Why I hate the current Democrat party:
They produce more poor people and then tell them they will make everything better by taking money from the rich. The problem is the money goes to Washington D.C. first. By the time it is run through the gauntlet of greed, corruption and inefficiencies we are lucky if 10 cents on the dollar makes it out.
I believe in liberalism through capitalism. This way the money goes directly to the people and not into some politicians hand. These guys are like the preachers that want you to send them a check so you can go to heaven. It disgust me.
Do the damn job you were hired to do. Properly regulate the industry, do not give yourselves more power and become the industry. That should scare the hell out of a true liberal, if there are any left.
johndevine, since you seem to be so in touch with the bill that hasn't been written, or the Obama Plan that is not, who is going to pay. Please do the numbers and show us.
Johndevine, how do you come to the conclusion that republicans don't know their best interest? Just because we dare to question what the Dear Leader says?
We are so close to getting needed care for all! Call your legislators! Let's get this thing done!
It appears that the democrats collectively want to get health care reform done. Many of them are showing the ability to be flexible and pragmatic and not clinging to rigid, ideology driven positions. The REAL debate in congress is moving along quite well. some of the republicans' concerns such as tort reform, tightening up the language on illegals, and more effort to nail down cost reductions are being incorporporated because they are good ideas, even though the republicans are behaving as 3 year olds with their shouting and lying. I look forward to daily updates on the progress of the reform measure and to its ultimate passage into law later this fall.
Ricepudding's take on national politics as a byproduct of the national health care debate, is as follows:
The fringe radicals of the GOP are now insuring a more minority role of radical GOP politicians in national politics. I can hardly wait to see public reaction to their planned 912 demonstration in Washington D.C. tomorrow.
You will be hearing and seeing an echo of militant, right wing extremists', illogical arguments, I experienced for almost two decades while I was a federal criminal investigator during the 1960s and 1970s. Their illogical arguments include classics, such as, circular argument, sensationalism, racism, emotion, fear, religion, if not other forms of illogical discourse. To read and listen to their illogical arguments is mind bending.
Their following is, simply put, exploited for their ignorance. Their following is being duped, their following repeats the same illogical arguments as fact, and their followers pay for memberships and videos, tapes and printed literature, again, replete with illogical arguments.
Their following is now being exploited for votes by fringe, radical GOP candidates. This development shows just how scared the red necks are. It is pathetic and it reminds me why I left the GOP during the Bush Jr. era, to become an independent, moderate voter.
Moderate GOP candidates will arise. History is repeating itself once again. Just like faith based politics of the Bush Jr. era, fringe, radical GOP candidates will be cast aside. Why? Because just like faith based politics, fringe, radical politics is just too susceptible to militant extremism. Moderate GOP candidates will be able to step forward and gain the votes of grass roots America.
Fringe, radical GOP politicians will be replaced with moderate GOP politicians, and complete an evolutionary change of the GOP, for its rejuvenation and survival.
pudding, please don't put down red-necks. I've known a lot of fine people who could be described as red-necks. Only a subset of red-necks are mindlessly lock step with the right wing extremists.
There is some hope for the GOP, as people like Charlie Crist demonstrate. They are not all hyper-partisans. The next few years will be one of identity struggle for the GOP, which must decide between right wing nut job extremists like Palin, or thoughtful and moderate people like Charlie Crist.
ricepudding - while you were a federal prosecutor in the 60's & 70's I would like to hear of your contacts with Bill Ayers and Bernadette Dorn. Not to mention some of the current czars. You know, all those fringe radical left winger democrats you like to forget about.
I've got news for you. Any radical behavior you might see during the 912 gathering will be on the side of the left wing democrats, or union thugs, same thing.
JH, the democratic party did go through a rediscovery process during the 80's and 90's. A lot of the left wing fringe element went to the Greens and the center of gravity of the party shifted to the center as the failures of Great Society big government became widely recognized, and the radical student groups disbanded as their members grew up. This lead to Bill Clinton and the only balanced budgets in modern US history. The dems still have a left wing element like Dean, Woolsey, and Pelosi, but also a lot of moderates like Feinstein and the blue dogs. The current GOP seems much less balanced these days. GOP's center of gravity is way right of center with loudmouth leaders like Palin and Rush Limbaugh (and their new hero Joe Wilson) drowning out the moderate voices like Charlie Crist or Bobby Jindahl.
John Devine,
..and the democrats are led by the nose by the trial lawyers. That's why you'll get no real tort reform. The leagl industry kicked 47 million to the democrats last year - by far their biggest contributor. Hypocrite.
Ah....Now it is time to cover your butt, Ms Pelosi! But just what does "drill down" mean? It this a polite way of saying just HOW MUCH you are going to destroy small business AND Seniors????? Someone is going to pay, and it looks like your are going to make the backbone of American Industry and those who have paid into the system the longest pay for everyone else. Thanks EVER SO MUCH!!!!!
The Republicans tried the centrist route last election, joe mota; it didn't work so well now, did it?
Everyone is still saying that Wilson acted inappropriately, and yet, now that the light is on the democrats are trying to put in the same legislation that the republicans have been pushing for all along when it comes to citizenship verification.
Now there is honest action on an issue. So exactly how inappropriate was his outburst?
I think that we need more men like him to stand up and shout for our rights as citizens. That is supposed to be why we elect them after all, isn't it?
JohnDevine,
Obama said in his speech Wednesday that he can give free healthcare to 307 million people without raising the national debt one cent and won't require additional taxes from the American worker. If you believe that, which I assume you do as someone who has received an obatomy, then you must have believe Bush when he said "Read my lips, no new taxes". I guess that makes you a three-year old.
Whatever gets done with illegals isn't worth a hoot unless it's enforcable. Employers aren't supposed to hire them, but they do. Hospitals aren't supposed to treat them, but they do. If you're going to fine people up to 3,500 bucks for no health insurance; then, you need to figure out a way to stop the illegal benefits of illegals. Try that FIRST then get on with the rest.
OK people, look at the facts! We have laws against illegal immigration. However, with no clear means to enforce them we have a huge illegal immigration problem. I don't think anyone disputes that do they?
So adding provisions to this bill denying health care to illegals WITH NO MEANS TO ENFORCE said provisions is just more of the same and WILL have the same result! An unenforceable law and no law are one in the same IMHO.
Learn from the past folks!
One more caveat, Obama will just make them all legal as HE HAS SAID said and then they will be covered! So illegals may not be covered technically, (other than in our emergency rooms) but practically, they will be so this discussion is a mute point.
Oldest trick in the book, just ask any Lawyer. The Devil is in the details folks!
I have read, I have seen, I have lived, and I see civil war. Not good. Not good.
I agree with the colonel....I just watched a video of Paulsen explaining how he screwed the american people out of fair market value for the bailout debt.......they need to go.....I would NOT TRUST the government with my health care....
It was not the time nor the place for such a rude remark. If this had happened while Bush was addressing Congress, all HADES would have come down the GOP pipeline.
It is a question of respect. If you didn't get your amendment through for resident verification, TRY again and make it work. The GOP doesn't seem to see problems down the road while they put up only roadblocks instead of solutions.
sdpaulson,
You write:
"Congress should give Americans control over their health care by giving them control over their health care dollar via tax credits and deductions similar to those outlined in Congressman Ron Paul's Comprehensive Health Care Reform Act (HR 1495)."
But I ask you, when the majority of the uninsured don't earn enough to even pay federal income tax, how is a tax break going to help them? Please bear in mind that the median household income in the US is $50,000 and that the cost of a family plan is about $12,000.
See below for a breakdown of uninsured by poverty level in 2005:
http://aspe.hhs.gov/health/Reports/05/uninsured-cps/index.htm#income (figure 2).
I am not so sure public opion is based on fact,,,the public goes by what is in the media,,and that is feed by politicans who have their own agenda...so just where is the truth on this subject...with politicans, I don't and can't believe that...since they have not shown any of it so far.
joe mota,
The federal budget was balanced after the republicans gained control of Congress. Bill Clinton opposed their efforts even to the point of shutting down the federal government because the House would not give him the spending he wanted. After the media fell right in line to support Clinton and blame the republicans for the government shutdown, he then signed the budget - that's how the budget was balanced! It wasn't Clinton and the moderate democrats who did it. Unfortunately, the republicans then became like democrats and started spending like crazy.
Why are they working on the illegal immigrant issue? I thought illegal immigrants were not going to get into the plan? That's what Obama and all his puppets in the media told us. If they are "working" on keeping illegal immigrants from accessing the plan then Obama WAS lying!! If he was telling the truth, there would be nothing to "work on". His phoniness is so transparent.
there is a black hole in the health care transition..back up in time, before it's too late..other wise, we'll be crushed by the insurmountable power..leaving us all crawling like worms, in a worm hole..Cher, sung it best; if we could turn back time..hey, a little frank absurd humor doesn't hurt no one....
This whole focus on illegal immigrants is soooooo bogus!
1) A new report from the Public Policy Institute of California says that foreign-born residents who are not U.S. citizens are among the least likely to use emergency rooms for those health issues that could be treated in a clinic. They are simply afraid to go to places where they might be turned in to ICE.
2) As of the 1st of last month, the FTC requires that every medical office, hospital, cl;inic and pharmacy that extends credit to a patient through an insurance company or accept Medicaid or Medicare patients will be required to request a government-issued photo identification from that patient. Last week I forgot my ID and could not pick up a prescription even though I had my debit card with my name on it. Think an illegal immigrant will do better?
3) HR3200 and 4 of the other 5 Democratic health care bills (I can't find one of them online) and NONE of the 6 GOP proposed bills all specify that illegal immigrants cannot be covered. Existing Medicare, Medicaid, and VA rules also specifically prohibit paying for illegal immigrants.
There are real issues concerned with health care reform that are not being addressed, but we are focusing on something that is demonstrably a non-issue? WTF!
I am also not too concerned about the money. France has the cadillac health care in the world and the French pay abouthalf what we pay per capita. That means that there is plenty of money within the system already to pay for everyone to be covered here if we just spend the money at least as wisely as the French. And I don't just mean a second-rate system -- I mean getting back to the U.S. being #1 in health care instead of #37.
I AM concerned about where we will get the physicians, hospitals, clinics, nurses, lab technicians, etc to treat many additional people. We are going to do like other countries and heavily subsidize these people's education to get them into the field and we are going to have to subsidize building clinics and hospitals.
I AM concerned about what for-profit insurance companies will do if a public option presents itself. They will lose some of their most profitable clients --- the "high-risk pool" people because they will no longer be able to charge them extreme rates. Will they raise everyone else's rates to make up the profit?
I AM concerned about tort reform. It has not reduce malpractice insurance rates in states where it is in place, it has just increased malpractice insurance company profits. And the tort reform I would like to see is that the ability to use settlement agreements to shelter physicians, pharmacists, hospitals, etc from disciplinary action or criminal prosecution be eliminated. This country leads the world in malpractice. "Medical misadventure" is the fifth leading cause of death in this country and not even in the top ten in any other industrialized country.
I AM concerned that efforts to implement things like triage and pay-for-procedure are not well understood in this country, though familiar concepts in other countries.
I AM concerned that no real effort is being made to give insurers (government of private) the ability to negotiate drug prices with big pharma. After all, virtually every drug was discovered and initially developed using NIH funds (taxpayer money.) We should be able to recover research money as a bare minimum. 8,000% is simply too much money to profit to make from a drug that was discovered using taxpayer money.
I DO have concerns and wish the focus was on those instead of bogus distractions.
livingbarefoot said: Why I hate the current Democrat party:
They produce more poor people and then tell them they will make everything better by taking money from the rich. The problem is the money goes to Washington D.C. first. By the time it is run through the gauntlet of greed, corruption and inefficiencies we are lucky if 10 cents on the dollar makes it out.
I believe in liberalism through capitalism. This way the money goes directly to the people and not into some politicians hand. These guys are like the preachers that want you to send them a check so you can go to heaven. It disgust me. Do the damn job you were hired to do. Properly regulate the industry, do not give yourselves more power and become the industry. That should scare the hell out of a true liberal, if there are any left.
Dennis Says: One of many reasons why I hate the Democrat Party.
I agree with some of what you said. They do produce more poor people and then tell them they will make everything better by taking money from the rich. The problem is, it is not their money to take. Liberals believe they are being benevolent by taking money from those who have more, to give to those who have less. The problem with that kind of thinking is, it is not benevolence to give a person money that you took from someone else. Not only that, it takes away the ability to be benevolent from someone that had money before it was taken away. It's like Margaret Thatcher said, "The problem with Socialism is, eventually they run out of YOUR money. I realize as a member of society that to expect someone who has more than enough, should help those with less than enough if they are doing what they can to make ends meet. But blanket redistribution of wealth at 10% or 100% is just as corrupt, just as wrong as giving it to the politicians. But we also agree that they should regulate the industry, and not become the industry.
Why start over? The republicans don't have anything to offer in the way of reform. To them the current situation is just fine. This is just another delaying tactic that won't work. Enough of this grandstanding it's time to do the people's business. By the way, the title of this article is very much misleading, must've been written by a republican.
To NiteOwlett - Congress (Democrats) did Boo President Bush during a speech to Congress, but no one did a thing about it. There were no apologies, nothing. SO why all the uproar about Joe Wilson. Democrats are big time whiners, that's why. There is a double standard when it comes to Illegals. They are illegal, but they keep getting away with sucking the life out of our Country. This needs to stop. The only money that should be spent on illegals is the money to remove them from America and make sure they do not come back. Solving the Illegal problem would do much to improve the economy in America. 12 million new jobs for starters, let alone all that entitlement money that will be freed up to be used for AMERICANS!!!!!!
Well, it appears that Obama was lying doesn't it? Maybe he should have to get up before Congress and do the apologizing!
If their process of verification is as lax as it is to get a job for the illegals, they won't have one bit of trouble stealing from our systems like always. They are pretty darned good at stealing people's identities!
Amnesty should never happen..that's NUTS !!!..we've got genealogical data records of everyone with a history here in America..Illegal entry should have fines and fee's paid 1st for all that..I foresee all our Health Care and Economy turning around with that, that's the sensible solution..there are LAWS to this LAND, and the AMERICAN PEOPLE WANT JUSTICE for being taken ADVANTAGED OF...
Obama said, "It won't cost the taxpayers a dime... that it will be paid for in savings". Then he still said it would cost 900 billion for the first 10 years. Is this Chicago math? The libs were all for triggers on the public option... How about a trigger to enforce Obama's promise to the American people... If it costs more than a dime then government health care instantly comes to an end. I would almost vote for that... but not quite... still giving away too much freedom.
johndevine When prior adminstrations attempted to "reform" aspects of health care, or S.S., did the left shoot it down so quickly because of their own self serving interests, or are you on the left the only "wise" people in the world. I was born and raised in Chicago and I truly do not believe that you are aware of how corrupt our politics are. You may want to do a reality check before you eaten by your own kind.
People Health Care will soon look like the education system!!! read about it @ ellis2002.wordpress.com Read Obama's thesis from Harvard!! WE talk about McDonnell and how his thesis from 20 years ago might ruin his candidacy for Governor. What about Obama's thesis?!?! read it at ellis2002.wordpress.com Is health care a right ? Should Education be a right? Do we have more of a right to bring a Gun to a college campus or a right to see a doctor? What does Obama think? What does Sarah Palin think?!? ellis2002.wordpress.com its easy to be on the far right of an issue, easy to be on the far left!!! HARD TO FIND A COMPROMISE. I'm working toward a solution for american THATS STRAIGHT TALK MY FRIENDS.
Prediction re Obama's Plan: Health care reform for Americans, excluding illegals, this year. Make all illegals legal next year.
They are being worked on because they are being FORCED to pay attention to what the American people have been screaming at them for weeks to do..............The democrats were ready to send it thru as is you dim-wit...........You may think just because someone is yelling at the democrats to do the "right" common sense thing, that they are Republicans. Well get your fingers out of your ears and start LISTENING......what a concept.....If the democrats would just listen and come to a consensus instead of shoving their poorly thought out laws and healthcare reform at us, maybe we wouldn't have to shout.
Road Warrior-1005773
JohnDevine,
Obama said in his speech Wednesday that he can give free healthcare to 307 million people without raising the national debt one cent and won't require additional taxes from the American worker.
Exactly. And then he said it would cost $900 billion, one hundred billion less than CBO projections. If something is free, therefore not adding one cent or dime to the debt and not raise taxes, it doesn't sound free to me.
So then Obama said he would not cut funding for medicare but would cut out the waste and fraud. Ok....so what the hell does he define as "waste?" Looks like he is lying again, specifically to seniors and others utilizing medicare. He said he wouldn't cut funding, but he will. He wants to cut $500 billion to help cover half of his plan. Reject the public/government option.
It is surprising the number of people that do not read the entire article before posting.
HR3200 section 246 has always had the language that states that illegals are not to be covered for free or given affordability credits. What they are working on now is new rules for verifying citizenship. Yet one more thing that the democrats are doing in the name of bipartisanship. What are the republicans doing in the name of bipartisanship? Telling lies? Scaring seniors?
We have never in this country verified citizenship for anything so you can not say it is this administrations fault. Why didn't the last administration make laws to require proof of citizenship before you can get a mortgage or medical care? They had 6 years of total control but it was not an issue as long as it was their administration. Now it's an issue that must be fixed before we can allow Americans access to affordable insurance?
To the person who said you should not get treatment unless you can prove citizenship: That would require a change in the existing law that states that emergency care must be given to all who seek it regardless of money or citizenship. Should we just let anyone who can not prove citizenship die in the streets? Who will pay to pick up the bodies? Who would pay to bury them? Or should we just leave the dead bodies to rot in the streets?
Before making a comment or jumping to fast judgment how about thinking it through all the way to the end?
It is easy to say don't treat them but it is harder to say what happens after we deny emergency care. Do we really want to be that country?
I would like to ask all of you whats wrong with just saying illegals do not get health care period, put it in the bill and stop all the hand ringing. It will not stop with the illegals who are in this country today, it will bring another 12 million over the boarder who will be looking for a there free health care hand out, plus they are not going to pay for it if Acorn and the rest of Obamas paid thugs have their way, " YOU WILL PAY". Look at what Acorn pulled in the last day or so, do you think they will not work the system if congress leaves out the entitlement program (SAVE) or something like it. NO ILLEGALS GET HEALTH CARE PERIOD"
This legislation is no different than any other legislation. It all costs something, and doubly so if the Government has a hand in it. The government option, Illegals, abortion, body sculpting, mandated health care, etc, etc, etc, are all issues that will be lost in a colossal maze and come back to haunt us if this legislation is passed. And yes, there will be the estimated costs, which are always wrong! And the burden that will be hoisted upon the backs of the American People and American Buinesses will further erode our ability to recover.
If we concentrate on what direction the country is going to establish itself financially, we have a better chance of plugging the health care holes ourselves. But the horizon has not yielded what we as a country are going to be known for. Will the "hand-out nation" moniker be it?
American Ingenuity is taking a beating!
- by Adrian Rogers in 1931 * Note the year it was written
2010 is the real year for change!
A bill has been written and though there are several iterations, HB3200 is a very strong indication of the direction the D's and Obama particularly are heading. When Obama criticized the radio talk show people and political analysts about charactering his plan (which he refused to give in any detail even now)by criticising the HB3200 which is all that is available, they called it correctly as Obama himself said he was going to stand back and let the legislature put a bill together.
Obama then indeed did lie as the bill he had mandated to be "put together" did, by default include illegal aliens just as Congressman Wilson called him out on. About three weeks ago more or less, an amendment to this legislation was offered by the Republicans that would specifically exclude illegal aliens from benefiting from the taxpayers dollars for health care. It would require identification as a US citizen to obtain benefits. That bill was squashed in committee 26-27 and the Democrats put it out on the floor without anything that would keep illegals from care for which they paid nothing (causing eventually a meltdown like California).
Wilson was correct. The President did lie when he said healthcare under the plan would not include illegal aliens. HB3200 (again the only reference we have) hence does, by default, include illegal aliens unless this is amended.
Congressman Wilson you have taken the heat for calling the President out on his fib. He is always using nuance to give false impressions (lying without exactly lying--perverication). In this case I suppose he can claim that the bill doesn't say "this bill shall include illegal aliens" but by not excluding them, like it doesn't exclude abortions, it does include both of the above.
I think Health Care should be tabled for a year while we study Singapore's health savings plans and other aspects of their superb health care system--not single pay as well as some more socialistic but perhaps more half and half like Germany where many private health clinics still exist. Only after full study of what others are doing and what is inexpensive and works (take a look at private Mao Clinic tops on both cost and delivery of top flight medical care) should any steps be taken.
Take a deep breath--this isn't about giving Obama a win that is a loss for all the rest of us--I think a lot of Democrats see that.
The problem is that any solution will take thought, regulations, and tort reforms. Since the problems with health care have been brought to the forefront, and are a targeted concern, then the solution should become more and more clear with time and thought.
Fix what is currently in existence. Instead of adding government beaurocracy to the current problems, as well as more government involvement in an area they've already demonstrated they cannot perform effectively, take the ONCE WORKING MODEL and do what is necessary to make it an effective, functional model again.
Just as deregulation has caused this recession, with the help of the Federal Reserve, so has it caused the break down of our health care system. Costs do go up because of deadbeats that don't or won't pay, but also because of abuses of lawsuits and big pharma. This won't change with any government plan, it will just be passed on to taxpayers by deficits that rise and rise. Government spending knows no end. Most won't truly realize the destruction of any government plan for years, perhaps entirely too late.
Fix what we have, in regards to health care and the economy, by sound regulations and BRINGING JOBS, CAREERS BACK HOME. Only then can any disparities in reasons for lack of coverage and actual cost increases in health care be worked out logically and honestly.
Anyone with any sense and whom has done research knows that doctors and medical professionals are NOT the ones that are abusing the system. They ARE doing what they are forced to in order to stay afloat.
Look to the true problems for answers, not what sounds easy and emotionally charged.
Jeez......maybe after all the sanctimony over Congressman Wilson's rude comment during the president's speech...he was right after all !!!
QUESTION: An illegal immigrant who has an undetected cholesterol reading of 400 has a heart attack and falls to the ground unconscious. What happens? 911 gets a call..so they check for a green card or insurance card before administering CPR..no? Doe that ambulance look for a cash deposit before they take him/her to the hospital? NO..does the hospital look for insurance ID cards before giving oxygen and shots of adrenalin? No..Fortunately he survives after 5 days in the CCU and is released..but..guess what no money, no insurance..WHO PAYS??WE DO..and BTW, preventative health care may have prevented this heart attack right? But no insurance so no preventative health care....so pay the piper later!
Will emergency care workers and Dr's. & nurses turn their backs..NO. So Mr. President don't "mislead" us and please don't tell us that they won't be covered one way or another.
Joe Wilson may have been on to something!
NiteOwlett,
You said if it happened to Bush then all hell would have broken out..Well it did even worst..Wilson was one guy,Bush was booed by the Democrats in 2005 during the State Of The Union address..President Bush was humble and just shrugged it off,but the Democrats will ride this horse till it drops... What a bunch of hypocrites.. Do a little research befroe you rant...
Dan,You can wish in one hand and you know what in the other. If ol Smokey Robinson gets this pig through, which he probably will after seeing some of the spineless comments by congressional (LEADERS), all the items you mention will occur plus what will be different with the illegals? NOTHING. They will still overflow onto the streets from the emergency rooms of america and overtax our healthcare system just as they do today-for free by the way. Nothing in this health care plan would stop that from happening, it will (now that an american had the balls to call out the prez)just say that illegals are not to be covered by our "National" health care program. Still a free-bee !
While we still have two political parties, what will be passed will be in their best interest not ours. Will they get re-elected or not is their primary focus.
Its Democrats vs Republicans. They are NOT working together on this, just along party lines. Not good for us.
Had there of been forthrightness in the beginning and the discovery process dealt with openly, had these power seeking clowns come to the public and ask what can we do to make this work for every legal citizens benefit, there would have been a lot more willingness to get something that would work. When you do not deal in good faith your just not going to get anyone who is going to listen to you, the idea that it is going to go one way will never settle well and if it is tried, the penalty will be loss of influence and status for a long time to come and trying to hard to consolidate their power and guarantee their own future, back off and remember who you work for.
night owlette, below is an excerpt from 2002 about MsClinton's blatant disrespect on national TV during a State of the Union Address after and about 9-11 attacks. the first part she is declining comment on examples of how the 'other party' is trying to discredit her, just means she can't think on her feet. So your comment above and the fact that NOW they are looking at the 'proper language' to bar ILLEGAL immigrants from getting more of our taxes, means that not only was Wilson correct, but had more class in his apology than any democrat would ever 'stoop to'. As she said, why can't Democrats just 'scoff' at this episode and who are the hate mongers?
Yep, the Devil's in the details. Of course Illegals won't be covered in the health insurance bill - the politicians will just fast-track amnesty for all illegals; thereafter all of them will be legally here and covered by our "contribution" to the health care system. No wonder they have such a low approval rating!
VOTE! VOTE! VOTE! VOTE! VOTE! VOTE! VOTE!
If you really want to stop this health care takeover and all the rest of this current marxist administration's agenda, grab your torches and pitch forks, burn congress to the ground, and elect leaders that actually listen to you.
spider, I'd agree that McCain is a centrist republican, but when he brought on Palin, he threw it over to the right. she's such an extremist that their team was really pretty absurd. It became all about Palin the unqualified twit and how bad McCain's judegment must be to have chosen her. McCain probably couldn't have won anyway, due the horrible record of the previous admin, the economy tanking, the Iraq war, and all the other problems. I suspect Hillary would have beaten McCain/Palin, too. But I don't think McCain's defeat should be taken as evidence that the republican party should drift toward Palin/Limbaugh politics, at least not if it expects to win any elections. Only the most blind GOP partisans cannot see what these characters really are.
McCain lost for one reason and one reason only: He is not and never was a conservative.
The Issue is not health care it is about power. It is about diverting us on the discussion on how bad our economy has become. It is about diverting us from talking about how Obama took a horrible debt and deficit and has made it much worse!! Are there actually any honest politicians holding office. Politicians whom love their country and fight for the rights of its citizens? I have lost all faith! Obama is not helping anything he is only making it worse and is dividing the country in the process.
burger, you're trying to divert... reform of health care is needed, it's vitally important, and we'll have it later this year. the only dividing is that the republican right wing has separated from reality.
scarab, the last major party "true conservative" to run for president was Barry Goldwater... there was also a perennial candiate from the John Birch Society.
Reagan was kind of conservative. Doubled the national debt, however, which disqualifies him from being a true conservative. Likeable guy, though, and helped end the cold war.
so the new Democratic motto is "The end justifies the means!" Sounds kinda DICTATORIAL! Fight the liars with every waking breath. we deserve what we get if we let this socialist/Marxist Juggernaut roll over us. Throw the Bums out!
leave...you're twising the facts beyond recognition. Obama said that illegals are specifically excluded from coverage. It's true. Now some right wing zealots content that there may be loopholes that might allow an illegal to obtain coverage. That does not in any way make what Obama said false. At most, it points out a loophole. Wilson's accusation that Obama lied when he said illegals would not be covered was a false accusation. If illegals are able to obtain care through this proposal, it would not be because they were covered, but instead due to fraud. You republicans by pushing this point are only making yourselves out to appear stupid and rude and disrespectful.
If everyone will recall, when Bush took office back in 2000, Social Security had a huge surplus. I have heard this called theoretical, but it was real, do you remember what happened to it? I believe the surplus was something like $825 million. I do, Instead of using it to stabilize Social security as Bill Clinton asked the republican congress to do, Bush mailed it back to us in small checks of $100 to $300. We spent it, there was nothing wrong with Social security until then, now whose fault does that make it? It seems to me that that makes it fall right back on the republicans and makes it their fault not that of a poorly run government program.
It is an absolute joke when Obama states that illegals will not be covered. We have laws in this country that do not allow us to deny medical services to anyone! Thus, illegals are covered by the tax payers. Of course the bill being passed will not say that they are covered. However, the only way that illegals will not be covered is if the bill states that we can deny services to illegals. The liberal media will never ask Obama if we will deny services to illegals. The reality is illegals are covered, but they are covered under a different bucket at the tax payers expense.
"we", dan? Have you got a turddle in your pocket? LOL
Good comment Dan,
What this issue and many others boil down to is a liberal desire to use the government as a charity. Conservatives, and anyone who understands our Constitution are completely against that. Americans, including conservatives, have no qualm about providing aid to the needy, in fact conservatives, including those who regularly attend Church, donate a far larger proportion of their income to charity than any other ideological group. There's nothing SELFISH at all about this mindset. Look at the combined rates of government aid + charity in the United States, vs. our more "progressive" friends in Western Europe. In countries where there are expensive government entitlement programs, like France, charitable giving has all but dried up.
There are very compelling reasons against having the government act as a charity.
Government raises money at the point of a gun. This goes against the very notion of charity - which is that those who have achieved a measure of success freely DONATE time, money, or items to those in need. The problem with providing "charity" from the government is that the receipients fail to see what they are receiving as "charity" - it is in their mind - simply something they are "entitled to" (hence the very definition of government entitlement programs). If our experiments with government aid to the needy has taught our nation anything, it is that giving something not earned, to a large number of people, over an extended period of time, will only create a larger number of similar people in the future, who DEMAND this help as their birthright.
Our nation was not founded on the basis of having one group of people rowing the boat, while another group becomes a perpetual freeloader class. Every American deserves a fair chance to succeed if they work hard and make good decisions. By the same token, those same Americans must be allowed to fail if they make bad life decisions, otherwise what would be the point of making an effort in life to begin with.
That is not to say that government does not have some role in helping the needy. Some liberals liken providing universal healthcare to the service provided by Fire Departmens, Police, etc. I will go along with that, only to the extent that NO ONE either currently or in the future, is denied urgently required medical care when they have an accident, etc. Many situations like auto accidents involve injured parties who may have no fault for their injuries. They can and should receive help from our EMERGENCY responders. But, what's being discussed now is not healthcare of simply an emergency nature.
The government needs to get out of the charity business entirely - or at least to the extent that they are the charity of last resort. The role of government in a free society is not to rob from one group of people to pay another, whether that pay is used for food, housing, or healthcare. When government provides assistance, such as in emergency situations like accidents or natural disasters, then that aid should be swift, effective and TEMPORARY.
The portions of our society who have grown accustomed to living off government aid should be redirected to PRIVATE charitable organizations. We should alter the tax laws to allow more generous contributions to these organizations - they provide the MOST EFFICIENT means of delivering aid to the needy, far beyond that of government. Many use volunteers as manpower, and there is no reason why a more robust charitable sector to society could not take over both healthcare AND supplant "welfare" in most areas.
There is no reason to expect that the aid that could be provided to the truly needy in such a system would be any less generous than our current system, in fact it could provide services that go just beyond doling out dollars or providing access to a "free" doctor. Those who receive monetary or food aid could also be given life skills training (i.e. - how to manage money, how to improve their skills and become employable, etc.) You don't have to make this mandatory, certainly those who feel that do not need such help would be able to opt out - with the caveat that "No training - then NO money". This would restore the proper role of charity in our society, instead of the efforts by liberals over the past several decades to remove the stigma of being "on the dole". Americans who could not pull their own weight in our society used to rightly feel ashamed of themselves, and a little of that humility would go a long way to curing what ails our society now. The alternative is create an ever larger dependency class, sucking money and tax dollars from an ever diminishing group of responsible contributors to our society.
There are those who would argue that many of the "achievers" or net contributors to society have an advantage over those who grow up poor. I accept that point at some level, but at the same time, there has never been a shortage of very successful people in this country who started out dirt poor. My father, a child of the depression, (born in 1919) saw extreme poverty as a child, and that only strengthened his work ethic. The problem today is not that too many people start out poor, it's that too many kids are raised in very comfortable lives, without understanding that it was the hard work of previous generations that created that life. Many feel they are "entitled" to things at certain ages, such as a large house, or a fancy car, simply due to their age in life, rather than their efforts in life.
There doesn't need to be any discussion on illegal aliens. They are illegal, that should say it all. Send them home and let them come back legally and pay taxes like we do. I owe them NOTHING. I AM looking forward to the next election.
livingbarefoot: hate (the word you use in your post) is the result of ignorance and fear. Take a good look at yours.
What people don't understand is, who cares if illegals can get government health insurance. Actually it would probably be better if they could, at least they would contribute to the system. As it stands, all they have to do is what they do now, go to the emergency room for treatment. Insurance or not, they will not be refused.
Joe,
Obama said illegals are excluded from coverage. Review it again. It says no Federal payment for undocumented aliens. This does not keep them from participating in some illegal capacity. This is why the debate on how to ID those that are illegals.
What is in the bill is documented aliens such as citizens of US Territories, Indian tribes, and Residents of US protectorates. They don't pay a nickel - the US Taxpayer does.
Ethically, doctors still cannot refuse anyone from treatment. Someone has to pay. Right now those treatments are paid in the form of higher costs billed to those who legitimately pay. If big brother are regulating/reviewing what the medical providers and insurance companies charge, where is the system going to cover for the free treatments and drugs we have to use for these illegal people who have shown up with a medical problem? When the hospital goes bankrupt for those unpaid products and services, Who is going to pick it up?
DB, are you saying that because someone can break the law, that a person who describes what the law is is a liar? that seems to be the crux of this stupid right wing mantra about illegal aliens....that Obama lied when he (accurately) described the law because someone might break that law....can't you see how ridiculous your line of argument is?
this is like accusing me of lying when I say "the law does not allow drivers to exceed the speed limit" because people speed... you guys are a sick joke! and you can't even see how absurd your reasoning is because you're blinded by your partisanship.
Democrats will win in 2012! Yes we can!
It's common sense folks! A third party that has "nothing" to do with the direct medical treatment of the ill is making billions of dollars, and determining who gets medical treatment! If you lose your job, and health coverage through no fault of your own and get sick, your probably going to lose everything you ever worked for attempting to get well. If you or a family member gets a catastophic illness (cancer, etc.) while your covered and working, and the costs exceed the cap (usually 2 mil.), your again going to lose everything you've worked your whole life for! There will never be a shortage of americans who need medical treatment, drugs, etc. etc. So why are the costs so high in a country where supply and demand has dictated the cost of anything? Medical malpractice awards? Only 5% of doctors are responsible for the bulk of them. If the malpractice carriers just raised the rates of the doctors that are responsible, like the auto insurance carriers do instead of raising all the doctors rates there may be less awards or actions. There was a recent story about a doctor who was sued by a patient for the same thing he had numerous past health code violations for in his office. If the AMA and those who license doctors were doing their jobs, this would've been one less malpractice action! It keeps coming back to the people who make billions of dollars as a third party that have nothing directly to do with the care of americans who are ill. There are those who say "all" americans are entitled under law to be treated at hospitals. True, if you have good health coverage you get plan A, cost is not a consideration, you get the best possible care they can administer. If you don't have health coverage you get plan B, you get just enough help to get you able to leave the hospital, then your on your own! You can't blame the hospitals, they just get so much tax money each year to treat americans without coverage, it's based on the census (population in their area served). It's sucked dry very quickly by all the illegal aliens using the ER's as doctors offices. Go to any ER and look around if you think that's bunk. That's why so many hospitals have gone broke or are on the verge of doing so. Couple them with a third party not actually involved in treating the ill making billions, and you'll see why medical costs are so high and getting higher. The medical insurance industry is a parasite feeding off of ill americans and contributing nothing to their medical care, except false hope! And if you don't think this campaign against health care for all americans is being funded by those billion dollar vampires feeding off the misery of your fellow citizens. Ask yourself why is there such an uproar against something that would help all americans, when the costs pale in comparison to the Iraq invasion, or the bailout of the wealthy who abandoned good business practices? This is the health protection racketeer's fighting for their lives!
The poll you need to worry about is the one done in November 2008. Perhaps you are in love with the premiums you pay for health and the managed care and death squads that your insurance company has- but most of us are not satisfied with our state of managed care plans. To put it in a way you might understand: Health insurance companies operate like casions. With a casino, you are welcome with open arms as long as you lose. But when you win consistently, you are barred. With healthcare, insurance companies are happy to take your high monthly premium and increase it yearly whether you use their insurance or not, but the minute you get ill they put up as many roadblocks as they can to either delay payments, refuse payments or drop you alltogether.
So, you want to take away Medicare and Social Security> Nice...
joe mota, the republicans have plenty of good ideas but they have not been allowed to share them. The prez did throw out the tort reform crumbs in his speech the other day.....
BILL CLINTON DID NOT BALANCE THE BUDGET...go to the treasury.gov website and read it for yourself .......what he Clinton did was borrow against social security ...
http://www.craigsteiner.us/articles/30 Craig Steiner explains it and backs up his claims using the US Treasury website.public information...
Chris Gilliard
Why start over? The republicans don't have anything to offer in the way of reform. To them the current situation is just fine. This is just another delaying tactic that won't work. Enough of this grandstanding it's time to do the people's business. By the way, the title of this article is very much misleading, must've been written by a republican.
Chris.... you need to dig a little deeper....Republicans have drawn up 35 healthcare reform bills that Pelosi and her ilk have refused to look at......because of course they include tort reform and competition and NO public option .....
ILLegals, are covered today and tomorrow, EMTALA, is mandatory on all hospitals and clinics. This has been so for 20 years. This illegal thing that has congress in a uproar, they should read what they passed 20 years ago. We are paying for illegal care now and no matter what is in the Health care bill, we will pay in the future. The illegal health care has brought the nations health care to the brink of collapse.
Obama Admits Rep. Wilson Was Right
Date: 9/14/2009 8:49:47 AM
by Bryan Fischer, AFA Director of Issue Analysis
The White House has now conceded that Rep. Joe Wilson was exactly right when he accused President Obama of lying when Mr. Obama denied that illegal aliens would be covered under the government takeover of health care.
Wilson knew that every attempt to deny coverage to “undocumented immigrants” had been voted down by Democrats, and that there was no verification method or enforcement mechanism in place to keep them from getting taxpayer-subsidized health insurance.
Last night, the White House caved, releasing a statement saying that the administration is now backing a proposal that says, “Verification will be required when purchasing health insurance on the exchange,” and specifically mentions the SAVE program (Systematic Alien Verification for Entitlements) that states currently use to make sure illegals don’t consume taxpayer-funded benefits that are reserved for legal residents.
The bottom line here is that if Rep. Wilson hadn’t “called out” the president, this concession never would have occurred. It turns out that everybody who supports sound immigration policy but who condemned the Congressman – including House Republicans that forced Wilson to apologize publicly - now owes him an apology. Don’t hold your breath waiting for that to happen.
I took a friend of mine to the Waukesha wisconsin office of the Social Security Administration and we were second in line. Then some Illegals came in and we had to wait. one woman said in Spanish that she and her husband have been here for three years and have one child.(anchor baby).they wanted social security cards so they could get medical care. they have been cheating the US government out of taxes for three years so far. We had to wait while 9 others went ahead of my friend who is a native born American citizen and has worked as a mechanic since 1975 and paid taxes. all of the mexicans were in fact Illegals as my friend can understand spanish. we were there at 9 am and we did not get in untill 2 PM. there are way too many Illegals getting social security now.This has to stop.
Here is some interesting information on the tie-in between health care costs and lifestyles.
"The recent “EPIC” study found that in 23,000 people adhering to 4 simple behaviors (not smoking, exercising 3.5 hours a week, eating a healthy diet including fruits, vegetables, beans, whole grains, nuts, seeds, and low meat consumption, and keeping a healthy weight that 93 percent of diabetes, 81 percent of heart attacks, 50 percent of strokes and 36 percent of all cancers could be prevented."
Studies indicate that up to 75% of the $2.1 Trillion yearly cost of health care in this country could be avoided with life-style changes.
Perhaps whatever plan we come up with should include surcharges that have to be paid out of pocket by people with poor life-styles, so that we could dramatically lower our costs. For example, if you insist on smoking, you should pay an extra 30% for coverage, etc.
Then watch the health care costs go down and overall health improve dramatically.
Food for thought.
The Public Option has the teeth to guarantee that the Insurance Industry reform ITSELF.
It is being done in concert with private insurance in several countries already.
clarke - This is America, we do things right. This Obamacare is not right for America. Let the other countries do as they like but we should do everything to stop this take over of our health care industry. Reform it, don't wreck it.
republicans have a view of "right" that includes, torture, illegal wiretapping, outing of covert CIA agents, snatching of American citizens off the street and imprisoning them without charges, or evidence.
I don't think we should listen to ANYTHING they have to say. Push they out of the way.
You hate the right John. What happens when they are in charge of your health care?
JH
If we were doing things right we would not be having this debate. No, it's time to quit ignoring the problem or letting the private sector handle it, because they haven't for years and years. All through my lifetime I have watched this debate and nothing ever happens.
The medical debt keeps piling up higher and higher, while all along the industry fights reform as ALL big industry always has.
No, they have had chance after chance after chance J.H.
Time for big Daddy to step in and administer an A$$ whoopin'.
They have no-one to blame but themselves.
Where do you get the idea that the conservatives will be in charge of my health care? People that have Medicare seem to be satisfied with it and it was not damaged even by the Bush Administration.
You are projecting your own fears because republicans have deliberately created a climate of hate and fear to dissuade people from cutting off their money flow from the Health Care Industry.
Clarke, so they failed at their job and your answer is to give them more power. Kind of silly, isn't it?
John, where do you get your false info? The Democrats are getting bought off when it comes to this much more than Republicans.
Why do you trust the government so much?
living
Good morning. No, I said the private sector has failed at IT's job, the insurance industry has failed at it's job (unless it's job is to just turn a profit and nothing else)
It's not that I trust government so much as much as it is that I trust corporate greed less, and the government is the only entity we have with the power to force the issue.
And the issue needs to be forced.
Benefits continue to erode little by little, while costs increase and more and more "unprofitable cases" are dropped from the roles, more and more people are uninsured leading to financial catastrophy.
It's not right, they have had ample time to clean up their act, and now it's time for their act to be cleaned up for them.
It's the only way good reforms will happen, short of a united populace withholding our dollars from them ourselves.
livingbarefoot
Republicans are already in charge of our health care via the Insurance companies, pharmaceutical companies, and their lobbyist representatives. They get their kickbacks for their votes against reform. Also, there are "death panels" and they are the insurance companies that collect premiums and look for ways not to pay claims or cancel their clients insurance when they need it and/or use it.
Without a public option, at minimum, the insurance companies will continue to increase delectable amounts and raise insurance rates at dozens of times the rate of inflation, and continue to either price insurance beyond the means of $50 million Americans or reject them for coverage for arbitrary reasons. The Health insurance companies (and the Auto insurance companies as well) love performing half of the service they are payed for namely to collect deductables and premiums and they will do whatever possible not to pay claims when the clients need/collect on insurance company services.
Also, without a public option, and if medical insurance is mandated, the Insurance companies will reap in profits on a level never before achieved by the insurance industry while continuing to refuse coverage and payment of claims.
Yeah! You betcha the Insurance companys and their lobbiests are working to get rid of a public option.
I keep hearing the whole system is evil and running us broke. I also keep hearing that the majority of us like what we have. I think the liberals are the ones spreading lies so they can take over another industry. Has anyone looked at how much their auto insurance has gone up over the years? When are the libs going to take over the auto insurance industry? What is next? You libs just want to switch the payments to someone else. You're going to be real surprised when you find out how much your free health care is going to cost you. Wake up. Reform the system, don't wreck the system.
And knock off this crap about blaming republicans, this is a liberal democrat government right now. They can do whatever they want without any input from the republicans. Pretty scary isn't it?
Clarke, good morning, I think we need to shrink the monster, not just change who it is.
We need to turn it back into insurance, not health care. We need to have high deductibles and pay for services as we go and get rid of these people making our lives miserable. It will not get any better having the government run it with no motive for profit or oversight.
The government started this mess. Over your lifetime, how many times have you heard someone say they took a government job even though the pay sucked, because of the benefits. I think people should make more money and pay for the services they want or need. The Democrat party thinks it is better for you to make less and have them collect money on your behalf. That is crazy!
livingbarefoot, you're advocating a one-size-fits-all approach as though you were a fascist dictator who thinks he has all the right answers.... one of the features of the current reform proposal is to offer more choice, so the consumer can purchase the coverage that best fits their circumstances.
That approach is fine in car insurance.
It needs to be turned into insurance, not health care coverage. That is what makes it so big and unmanageable.
You can still purchase supplements, like AFLAC if you want, you will still have those options.
Insurance for ILLEGALS -- HOW SPECIAL !
Bogus and diversionary tactics. The illegal use of the medical facilities and the run up on ER cost is already near peak. It does not inflate, nor increase. It is the health insurance cost.
The Republicans are trying to stall out and to drag out reform using as many divisive issues as much as possible. The bills aleady clearly stated the matter. These politicians should be dragged out to the back shed and receive a serious spanking!!
Hmmm... may be not....they might like or want that.
Insurance companies cover more than they ever have, look it up if you dont believe it, and there profit margins are very small when you compare to alot of other industries (3.3%). Libbies need new talking points that have been spoon fed to them.
barefoot, you can choose whether to own a car, which invokes the requirement to have car insurance. you cannot choose whether or not to have health. Everyone is at risk requiring health care, no matter what they do or how they live. People who do not contribute to the health care pool are sponging off the rest of us. That's why making it mandatory that people purchase coverage or pay a fine is fair and reasonable. It's also why the car insurance analogy doesn't hold water.
Michael, Even if there is no insurance for illegals; they will continue to receive health care and be a drain on the system. Next, we will be forced to carry "uninsured- insurance", like our auto policies.
This free insurance will cost a minimum of 20% from wage earners. No rich elitest is going to come to the rescue and no wealthy congressman will give up their "subsidized insurance for life".
Corruption in government is too deep and both political parties are "bought and paid for". I don't fear socialism, I fear the elite politicians that make up the ruling class.
The analogy was on the one size fits all. We need to change this monster we call health care. It is to big and convoluted. Even if you make it mandatory, which I am against, you still should shrink the monster.
People can always purchase supplements.
joe mota
You can choose to have health insurance that covers what you want or need as well. You don't need the government to give you something that is already available. If you want to talk about reducing costs then let's talk regulation reform and tort reform. I may be paying for them now but I will certainly be paying for them alot more later! This proposal doesn't control costs but adds millions to the insurance rolls that if yo believe obama can't afford insurance now. What makes you think they will be able to afford the coverage when it is mandated? How will the feds collect the fines levied to those not in compliance? Especially if those same people don't pay income tax. And as far as illegals go, there was no language requiring proof of citizenship in the proposal so how would you keep them out?
To ricepudding...you are definitely a liberal twit. You were probably a liberal twit in the 60's...did you go to Canada or did you go to fight for your country in Viet Nam? The Republicans are conservatives...the liberals are the radicals. The Democrats are calling the silent majority Nazi's, Unamerican, right-winged terrorists just because they don't agree with the Messiah on his health care issues. This is not a Crisis...this is government control of the health care industry. GE owns MSNBC and NBC (which is probably where you get your information...there is no journalism in the big three anymore...just an advertisement for Obama). GE is sitting here with their hands out for repayment in getting Obama into the white house...they are set to make billions as part of this health care reform. Under your thinking, we should all be the sheep and just get led to the slaughter by this socialist, elists, self-serving congress of Democrats who have been in office so long that they have become rich on the teet of the American Tax Payer. Well, say what you will...I am not a right-winged terrorists, but I am damn well a conservative Patriot and I will fight to the very end to remain a free country. If this health care reform is not done right, you will be paying 48% of your income to pay for it like Canada, it will break the U.S., there will be a shortage of doctors, illegals WILL get paid for insurance, seniors will be let die rather than fix the problem, and care will be rationed. This is just the truth of the matter, because there is not enough doctors or money for this bill the way it is. If we get a public option, in four years, all health care will be from the government...this will kill our economy that is finally starting a little come back. This whole thing is ridiculous...first there were 50 million uninsured, then 46 million, and now there is 30 million uninsured...where did the other 20 million go? Do you not see that all of this is a LIE. You are being lied to by the liberals and you are either too stupid or blind to recognize a good con game.
ohgreatone - blueblaster - You argued healthcare is NOT a right, that Education is NOT a right. Our health care system is broken. But according to your numbers there are 15 million people who don't even have a chance to get this "broken" care. My other article (ellis2002.wordpress.com) says that our public school system is broken and that universal health care would begin to emmulate and become similar to our public school system. No where in the Constitution does it say we have a right to an Education!! But we recognize it as essential and our "responsibility" My point there is that, at least all americans have a chance at an education, we can't say the same about health care. Now that every American has the right to an education, we can go about the task of fixing our education system so that every american has the BEST education. Rome was not built in a day!! Don't let the PERFECT be the enemy of the GOOD. No, we will not get a PERFECT health care system for ALL while Obama is president. Thats a fight for another day. This is what I mean by we should not be fearful of the future size of Government. We can not be AFRAID of failure. What if Government gets it wrong? Instead of Fear of Government, we should have Belief in America. What if we get it right. What if one day any AMERICAN can walk into a doctors office, show his ID, and recieve the health care he needs. What a GREAT DAY THAT WILL BE!!!
I wish half of the people in these forums understood what common sense is. Yes, the insurance industry should be reformed. How it is reformed is the issue. Take the words of Obama at his first townhall speech regarding his healthcare option:
So, he wants us to sign up for an option that is run like the post office?
Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/12/us/politics/12obama.text.html?pagewanted=9&_r=1
arkangel, I don't get your point...under the current plan, the government dosen't "give" you anything (setting aside low income folks for now). Health coverage is purchased by paying premiums. That is not a government giveaway. the purpose of the public option is to make affordable health insurance available (not given away) where it is not. there are locations with only 1 insurance company with sky high rates. Obama would like to see the consumer have more health coverage choices available to choose from so they can PURCHASE it. (Not a government giveaway).
Please feel free to complain about subsidizing health care for poor people. It's at least a real issue.
leave, are you a twit? anyone who's read the constitution, which obviously excludes you, knows that if the president does not like legislation that passes congress, he can veto it. Bush did that often during the last 2 years. Democrats did not have enough votes to override the veto. You really don't understand our system, do you? Are you one of those ignorant right wingers who screams at town hall meetings and has no idea what he's talking about?
ACORN is Corrupt to the core
I invite you to do a search using this following word group on any search engine:
“ ACORN pimp prostitute underage girls ”
And what will you find?
Acorn workers seen in multiple cases coaching people on how to bring underage girls in from South America to be used as prostitutes, and how to hide the income from the IRS and claim them as dependants while they are used a sex slaves.
This is coming from Obama’s main political action organization.
Stop the health care reform talk; it’s time to talks about Obama and the political circle that has followed Obama in to office.
Corrupt to the core
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtTnizEnC1U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNYU9PamIZk
Here are the videos but this is only the tip of the iceberg.
ACORN is a Massive Criminal Organization and Obama served as a comumity organizer for them. ACORN serves as his foot soldiers
His and their program is to deplete the resources of government and change the face of America forever.
repeat: ACORN and Obama have the same GOALS !
It's right in your face America
Joe,
One state has 80% of it's people on one health insurance company. This is because Insurance companies have to write policies taylored to the individual state regulation in coverage, cost, and what insurance companies can make. If the rates were indeed high, many other companies would come in to get a peice of the action by lower prices. It is more likely that the government has it's fingers deeply involved to the point, no other company wants the hassel.
Health care reform victory is on the way! Yes, it is!Democrats will win in 2010 and 2012! Yes we will! The party of hate and losers is over! Yes it is! Democrats will win again! Yes we can!
johndevine.....what about how obama not only kept the wiretapping that was being done to citizens but EXPANDED on it? where's the OUTRAGE? How about how the whitehouse asked citizens to report on each other? WHERE IS YOUR OUTRAGE?
The "public option" will only guarantee two things. (1) Eventually there will be no choice for health care insurance except that which is offered by Obamacare. This will be so because no private health care company will be able to compete with Obamacare which will be funded with a never ending supply of our tax dollars. (2) CONTROL of all Americans through health care which is the true agenda of Obamacare in the first place.
Oh, make not mistake about it. It will start off being the end all, fix all and the cost to the individual will be little compared to private health care insurance. Later with the competition gone/bankrupt/out of business laying off thousands more to add to the already record unemployment, Congress and Obama will tell us that they "didn't know this would happen" and due to the increased costs they must raise taxes on everyone. This will hit the low and middle class workers who are fortunate enough to still have jobs and ultimately the rich will either desert American like the sinking ship it will be or just ride out the wave of financial destruction while hiding most of their wealth in other countries, (most didn't get rich by being stupid). Obama's $900 Billion will be lucky to not swell to more than 10 times that amount and still, like Medicare, Obamacare will become (if not remain) financially insolvent.
Face it folks. Obama nor Congress can fix Medicare, yet they want us to by their sales pitch that they can reinvent health care and make it work? It just doesn't make any sense.
The real key to checking the skyrocketing cost of health care is to allow interstate competition between the current health care companies and stopping the fraud being committedby far to many health care providers using Medicare. Also controlling the cost of prescription meds, especially those developed using Federal grant money.
OOOPS John Devine was wrong.....
Obama Admits Rep. Wilson Was Right
Date: 9/14/2009 8:49:47 AM
by Bryan Fischer, AFA Director of Issue Analysis
The White House has now conceded that Rep. Joe Wilson was exactly right when he accused President Obama of lying when Mr. Obama denied that illegal aliens would be covered under the government takeover of health care.
Wilson knew that every attempt to deny coverage to “undocumented immigrants” had been voted down by Democrats, and that there was no verification method or enforcement mechanism in place to keep them from getting taxpayer-subsidized health insurance.
Last night, the White House caved, releasing a statement saying that the administration is now backing a proposal that says, “Verification will be required when purchasing health insurance on the exchange,” and specifically mentions the SAVE program (Systematic Alien Verification for Entitlements) that states currently use to make sure illegals don’t consume taxpayer-funded benefits that are reserved for legal residents.
The bottom line here is that if Rep. Wilson hadn’t “called out” the president, this concession never would have occurred. It turns out that everybody who supports sound immigration policy but who condemned the Congressman – including House Republicans that forced Wilson to apologize publicly - now owes him an apology. Don’t hold your breath waiting for that to happen.
i love my health care plan. I know barry will screw it up.
No one is asking you to change it. That is just another republican lie.
john - nobody is going to be able to continue what they have. There will be major changes and nothing will remain the same. Not to mention costs will go up. If you think the insurance industry is going to agree with all the new rules without charging a lot more you are dreaming. Are you related to Nancy Pelosi? You make about as much sense.
johndevine, you really need to read the bill that came out of the House. You are starting to look foolish here, since all you seem to know is Uncle Ed Schultz's talking points.
JH, under the current system costs and coverage for most people changes every year as employers re-negotiate coverage packages with the insurance industry. In other words "major changes and nothing the same" is the current state of affairs. Plus people with insurance never know if the insurance company will pay up if they get sick. Reform will make coverage more secure and more stable than under the current system.
joe sorry you are wrong in this issue. As soon as the govt start a massive interference program and a public option the insurance industry will change dramatically. Costs will rise faster than before as will the requirement for more public money in the form of fee, fines or taxes. Adding whatever million the democrats come up with now will only add to the debt burden on the govt to pay up. There will be no savings from medicare or medicaid because if there were to be it would already be accomplished.
True reform would make sense but the crap being shoveled by the liberal democrats is an economic disaster waiting to happen. Private insurance will go up as will the govt debt as they absorb mopre people into the system. Additionally when the govt starts to mandate that every citizen is required to buy insurance or be fined is complete crap. Whether or not this liberal govt succeeds in destroying the private healthcare system and adding another social welfare program that will cost the taxpayers billions or trillions the fact that the American people are having their freedom of choice, garunteed by the Constitution, taking away from them.
This bill is not reform it is a govt takeover and a stripping of Constitutional rights. Another point is that if it is needed so badly right now then why wont it take effect until 2012 or later? Sounds like the democratic lie machine is churning full force to create their own fear propaganda wave about exploding insurance costs to pass this social crap.
You know, if the government wanted to ensure more affordable healthcare/insurance, they would let people 1) buy insurance across state lines and 2) give a tax credit or voucher ($5,000) to households to help them buy or cover expenses for insurance.
Obama's plan is anti-capitalist. He is trying to force the insurance companies to compete with the government, not the market or other industries. He says he wants to promot competition, then stop trying to social medice. Socialism seeks to destroy capitalism and liberty, exactly Obama's agenda for this Country.
It should be somewhat anti-capitalist when it comes to health insurance, This is a democratic society still isn't it? Or have we gone completely capitalist? Why are health insurance executives allowed to make millions in compensation while people are suffering and dying?
Why is the right so filled with hate and contempt for their fellow man? Isn't a large part of the right religious? Or are they religious in name only and just in love with the brand name of religion? You would expect religious people to care about all of America and participate in a civil debate and discussion on such an important issue. Didn't Jesus remain civil, caring and forgiving even as he was being killed?
All of these issues could have been settled and debated prior to august if all involved had put aside party, religion and other differences to do their job which is to work for us not their own party. Right now republicans are only working for the right fringe and the corporations not the people of America.
usmcvet, I oppose the government option you describe. the requirement to make coverage mandatory or pay a fine is simply recognition of the reality that everybody is part of the health care pool whether they realize it or your living in some "me against the government" fantasy. Simply put, everybody is at risk of a medical emergency. Those who do not contribute to the health care pool are sponging off those who do contribute because it is us who end up picking up the tab. In addition to mandatory coverage or being fined, I think posting a bond would be another acceptable alternative. But it is irresponsible to burden the rest of society with covering the risk that you will require medical treatment.
mmm--the responses to your message show clearly that most folks don't realize we won't be able to keep our insurance plans we love.
Look at it this way. Say you want a Chevy and it is selling at $20K. The government says they want you to have choices. There is a Honda that also sells right now for $20K but the government steps in to give you an option subsidized by tax dollars (kind of like the cash for clunkers) and say they will sell you the Honda for $10K (courtesy of the US tax payer). Wow, before long it will be $5k for the HOnda then Honda will be free. So much for competition. That is why government competing with private enterprise is a bad idea. It will result ultimately in single pay!
It is that simple. Obama is the slick of tongue one. He says we can keep our plans but will cause them to be so much more expensive that our employer--beholden to the shareholders of the company to up profits and minimize costs will have us all in Hondas health care courtsey of Obamacare.
juno, the public option that appears most likely to be passed does not include a government subsidy. Health care co-ops, being drawn up by the Baucus committee are paid for entriely by subscribers. They are more like insurance companies than like medicare. Your analogy, though interesting, is probably not pertainent to the reform package that will be passed.
And whether or not you're able to keep the insurance plan you love depends on your employer and their insurance carrier. Without reform, skyrocketing costs and reduction in coverage will make your current plan a thing of the past.
John,
within 5 years all health insurance policies must comply with what the number of new health & cost boards decide on what a policy should costs and what services that should be offered. Your policy does not change if services offered match what the health policy and cost policy Boards determine. When your policy is lacking the minimum or offers more than the maximum, adjustments to get in line will be involuntary.
These boards and commission could also be termed "death panels" because thge commissions and boards may not be currently intended to perform this way, but as time goes on those "governing" are going to change. Change is something that cannot be controlled, it has a life of it's own. There is nothing in the bill to say that this can never happen. Even if it is stated, there is no way to prohibit the removing of such limiting language.
mmm, stop listening to the town hall domestic terrorists and private insurance hate mongers. They will have you being lead around by the devil.
Stop the maddess,
Ok, to start with "Yes" Jesus says in the Bible to help one another & the poor. But Jesus also says in the Bible, That sloth fullness (Being lazy) is a sin & he frowned upon that. We should help the people that truly need it. No the career welfare people that teach their kids to do the same. Alot on welfare are able to work & choose not to, to get free money. They see it as something that is owed to them. That is the difference then someone who has lost his job & home. They are what welfare is for. It was never meant to be for life a way of life.
Oh, on your comment about why insurance CEO's allowed to make so much? For the same reason all the other CEO's of all the other Corps out there do. The Government lets them get away with it. If your really think the Repubs are the only one that the Corps have in their pocket, think again. Both parties are bought by big Corp. They are all corrupt.
Interesting that pelosi now wants to "drill down" on what this bill will do to seniors and small business when her and Obama wanted to cram this down our throats before recess.
WHAT A SHAM
Pelosi's a sham, dazzling us with her catchy sound bites!
"Cram this down our throats" is the republican phrase for not getting what they want. Just in case you are unaware of it, the majority of Americans want this reform. Only the gullible easily manipulated goobers in the republican party oppose it.
And that opposition is based on lies and things going on in their heads that do not exist in the real world.
John why do you want people you despise in charge of your health care. Shouldn't they just properly regulate it, instead of becoming an all powerful entity with nobody to answer to.
If your watchdogs become the industry, you lose your watchdog.
I can't believe how many so-called liberals now trust the government. It is super funny.
John,
the polls show that more people oppose it than support it.
barefoot, it would be super funny if it weren't so scary.
Interesting how Pelosi's investment banker husband is now " investing" in the new govt companies that would handle healthcare. Out of one deep pocket(the insurance companies) and into a deeper pocket....Pelosi and Friends and Husband
WHAT A SHAM
Everyone keeps talking about the out-of-control costs (which they are). However, people are villifying insurance companies, and they have become the scapegoat for the complete picture. Insurance companies bear some blame for this country's medical situation, but that blame should also be spread across the whole spectrum of players that are in the medical industry.
According to a news show I watched the other night, insurance company profits are at ~3.3%, but medical equipment manufacturers had a profit rate of > 35%. What's up with that? Until you actually do some research about where the cost is coming from, how can you come up with a plan to resolve it?
I agree with some of the items, like insurance companies not dropping people from coverage because of increased use of policies. I am on the fence about pre-existing conditions, because what does that mean? The definition of insurance is that you pay for it on the chance you need to use it in the future. Where is the line on a pre-existing condition? Can someone get insurance today for something they know they already have? (I'm not talking about having cancer 10 years ago, and it's still in remission -- those people should be accepted). How will the current items being discussed cut costs? Sure you are putting in competition for the insurance companies, but what about all the other players? What is going to change a medical equipment mfgr or pharm company to stop gouging and earning > 35% profits? Umm... NOTHING!
No to the current content of the bills being discussed. NO to public option. Congress needs to actually understand the cost drivers, and then put sections in a bill that targets(regulates) those. This shouldn't be a power-grab from government. We've already seen how well that works. SHOW ME THE NUMBERS!
john you are a complete idiot. You state that the republicans want to cram this down America's throat when it is your heroes obama, pelosi and the sesame street gang that has said repeatedly how they will force it through without republican input. Also all of the liberals and democrat deluded like you shout how to just cram it down the throat of America. So the cram it down thing is strictly a dem thing on this issue as the republicans keep saying lets stop and get real reform. Up until now every republican compromise has been rejected out of hand and now the dems finally realize that they will have to forge many new lies to even get this past their own party.
johndevine
just what would you call trying to pass a bill that no one has read or wanted to read in two weeks time when it hadn't even cleared committe yet? A twelve course banquet? Get real! Obama wanted to slip this by with as little debate and common knowledge as possible to show us how effective he can be. He also new that if anyone actually read the garbage that is associated with this proposal they'd scream and that is exactly what happened at town hall meeting after town hall meeting. That is until they started to pack the democratic meetings with Union members and ACORN members.
How hard is it to read a 1000 page bill? They can read, right. If they have not read it it is because they do not care what is in it because their vote will always be no.
People keep mentioning insurance company profits but profit is calculated after salaries have been paid. They pay their executives huge salaries (9-10 million in some cases) to avoid showing huge profit so they can avoid huge tax. Shouldn't they pay more claims instead? It would still keep them from owing huge taxes.
My understanding (and concern, frankly) is that the problem with HR 3200 is that, while it does specify that nondocumented persons cannot be covered, it does NOT specify that proof of citizenship be required. That is apparently why so many people are anxious to claim Obama is lying about illegals being covered. My definition of lying must be a lot more strict than most. However, I would like to see a provision requiring proof of citizenship or legal residency. I've written all my representatives expressing that. I've never been able to get an answer from those who claim Obama is lying as to whether they've done the same.
I did read the bill on line. It DID say that the Dr's & Hospitals could NOT ask for PROOF of CITIZENSHIP!!! That is why now after the senator cried out, the dems are going back to put it in that No Illegal can get free health care.
Do you really want to have to produce Proof of Citizenship before a doctor will see you in the emergency room? What about the emergency?
Ok, get real. They will treat anyone with a life threating emergency! But alot of illegals go to the ER for minor things, due that they can get health care for free there. And that should be why they need to show an ID.
then we should allow them to buy insurance if they want to.
If the government forces the private sector to pay for the public option and forces providers to accept lower fees to participate in their program we will have the same situation, cost shifting. Soon the pressure the government option places on the private sector will force them out of business and the political gurus will have their wish a permanent ATM, called health care reform. In my view the power hungry political leaders will stack the deck and force the issue. It may take a few years but they will get it done. Then the true cost of this reform will become apparent and they will have a free reign to tax as they wish to pay for the wonderful cornucopia of benefits they will provide.
Agreed!
From the mess, more Orgs. like Acorn will emerge to suck up even more tax payer dollars under the flag of the helping the less fortunate. This is really amazing, and it seems liek we cant do anything to stop it. The masses are just uneducated, or all about taking other peoples money.
Nice MSNBC, just ignore Acorn and it will go away? To bad you have no spines......Acorn, GE, NBC, and Obama. Do we stand a chance?
Carlos, if the public option is implemented through a well designed co-op system, your fears will not be realized. Co-ops will be financially independent, just like insurance companies. they will be financed completely through premiums paid by their subscribers. The key here is "well designed". I would like to see more health care professionals such as yourself address the concept of health care co-ops, realizing that it's an evolving concept. One advantage of co-ops over government control is that management of the coop is by a board elected by the subscribers. A disadvantage of a government run system is that management philosophy will change with every election.
joe mota-
The fear people have about the public option is it will drive private insurance out of business. Then the only option will be public. When you look at places like Canada it is reverse. Now one of the biggest growing industries there is private healthcare because the public option is having so many problems.
I'm a registered Republican. I think there needs to be reform. Among other things I'm a big believer in tort reform. The way Obama casually mentioned it in his address to congress makes me nervous. I think he said to appease some of his critics not because he believed in it. The left says the GOP doesn't want reform because their pockets are lined by health insurance corporations. However, I feel the Dems doesn't want tort reform because their pockets are lined by the trial lawyers.
I'm not a fan of Obama but I respect him for trying to get the ball rolling on healthcare. There are huge changes that need to be made. I have never had any issues with my own insurance but I'm not foolish enough not to see the problems of the overall industry. I just hope Obama actually takes the more bipartisan approach he is claiming to take.
Sorry I meant:
However, I feel the Dems don't want tort reform because their pockets are lined by the trial lawyers.
This will cover the current medical debt to some extent. Bigger pot.
Kelly, my hope for the public option is that will be a system of non-profit health care co-ops that are financed by their members and managed by a board elected by the members. Note that "the government" is not involved in operations and no taxpayer money is involved. There would be dozens to perhaps hundreds of these co-ops across the country...They would be set up by regional hospitals, doctor groups, community groups and private individuals, not the government. If this form of health care provider turns out to offer better service at a better price and requires no support from the government, why should we care if private for-profit insurance companies can't keep up?
I suspect it will turn out to vary considerably by region and market, which is what you'd expect in a free enterprise country.
I'm not surprised you're "nervous" about Obama's commitment to tort reform. You naturally filter information through your republican lens, to some degree depending on the partisan loyalty factor. I'm curious, too and will follow these developments closely.
I think that to this point Obama has demonstrated much more of an effort at bi-partisanship than did his predecessor. I think congress is basically a partisan snake pit where the party in power dictates and the party out of power gripes and complains and tries to obstruct. I wish we were all less partisan.
Thank you Joe. I appreciate your response. Your hopes for the public option seem very fair and reasonable. If it were to be set up the way you mentioned I wouldn't have a problem with it.
I think the term "public" healthcare makes me anxious in general. I was in the military and have very bad memories of government run healthcare.
Unfortunately the blueprint for the co-ops will be written by people who don't want it to succeed. The leaders have made it clear what they want, in my view they will figure out a way to get the results they desire and the ensuing payoff. I hope I am wrong but I see the leadership of both party's as scheming opportunists who cannot be trusted, one might note the disdain they have for dissent from their policies. They are more like spoiled children than leaders
Everyone believes in tort reform until something happens to someone in their family. I work for a personal injury attorney and have seen the devastation. There are many bad doctors out there that the profession does not take care of. Instead of taking their licenses away, they tell them to move to another state. Tort reform won't do anything. Once again, it is the insurance companies who charge doctors the high premiums for their malpractice insurance.
okla4obama, you don't think the threat of frivolous lawsuits affects the insurance premiums? Everyone who sees a physician pays those premiums. How about a cap on earnings for personal injury attorney's instead of a percentage of the settlement?
Carlos, my understanding is that Baucus' committee gets first crack at the co-op formulation, which means it would be written by its chief advocate. The people whom you suggest want it to fail are, I presume, the liberal house democrats who want a government run system, and the entire republican party (Snowe excepted) who really just want a political victory. I've seen signs that even Pelosi may be amenable to a co-op system if it's the only way she can get a health reform bill passed. You have to admit, our system of government is interesting
okla4obama-
No disrespect but of course you don't think tort reform is a good idea. I don't blame you for not agreeing with me. It is your profession. My husband is in his third year of medical school so my views are of course skewed the other way. Insurance has to charge the high premiums to cover themselves. Many of these people that sue aren't asking for a few thousands they ask for millions. If there is tort reform the insurance companies also need to re-adjust their premiums. I absolutely believe there needs to be reform within the insurance industry as well.
okla, there are other ways of approaching tort/malpractice reforms, and the associated problems of malpractice insurance and defensive medicine than placing stringent limits on award to victims. One approach insurance is adoption of state-financed re-insurance, like they did in Florida for hurricane coverage. The state guarantees to back the insurance companies in the event of catastriphic losses, like 4 major hurricanes in the same year. this dramtically changes the risk analysis and resulted in a large drop in insurance costs for Florida homeowners. Some combinatiton of caps on punitive damages, but not on compensation award plus some government re-insurance backup to soften risk might be part of the answer.
It is very difficult to file a frivolous malpractice suit here in Oklahoma...you need an expert (doctor) and his report agreeing it was malpractice to even file the suit. They are also extremely expensive and it is hard to find an attorney who will cover the costs. Not saying there are not frivolous lawsuits, just not very many medical malpractice ones. For those who want a cap on judgments: If a doctor did something to a family member that resulted in the person's death...would you agree to a cap? What is a life worth? That is a question for the jury.
Joe, I have State Farm insurance on my home. After the Florida hurricanes, my insurance rates skyrocketed. I called the agent and he said it was due to the losses in Florida. I shouldn't have to pay more for something that happened in another state. Insurance companies make billions. IMO, increasing my rates for losses sustained in another state is just another way of making more profit. Guess I am not totally understanding what you are saying.
okla, after the 2004 hurricane season, homeowner insurance quadrupled, even the state sponsored "Citizens" insurance, which was the only coverage available near the water. Charlie Crist, the republican governor, took on insurance reform as a populist crusade. He worked with insurance companies and community activists and anyone else with constructive ideas adn eventually worked out insurance reform that included re-insurance, a state-backed guarantee against catastrophic losses. Now homeowners insurance is only about 50% more than in 2004, and more closely reflects the true risk. It is statistically pretty unlikely that Florida will suffer through 4 hurricanes in one season within the next 50 years, so hopefully this turns out to be a wise solution.
What irritates me so much is, the Democrats have been pushing their incredibly high spending ideas with such force, especially the health care reform, all the while bellowing that the Republicans are just getting in the way. They have stonewalled all conservatives, chanting that the conservatives are simply a party of no. This is all crap!
Republicans have offered many commendable alternatives, which would help the American people, reduce costs, and avoid creating another huge government bureaucracy. Here are just a few, addressing health care reform:
The "Patients' Choice Act", which was introduced on May 20th by Republican Paul Ryan. This plan offers refundable tax credits of $2,290 to individuals and $5,710 to families to pay for health care. It would create marketplaces to offer insurance choice and make more private insurance options available to consumers without creating a public insurance system. In an effort toward tort reform, it would also include independent courts to resolve malpractice disputes, eliminating huge settlements and expensive law suits.
The "Health Care Choice Act", introduced on July 14 by Arizona Republican John Shadegg. This plan would allow consumers to purchase health insurance in other states. Basically, this would eliminate the sweetheart relationships insurance companies have with state insurance commissions.
The "Empowering Patients First Act" was introduced on July 30 by Georgia Republican Tom Price. His plan would extend tax deductions on health care premiums to the "individual market" and offer a low-income tax credit of $2,000 for individuals, $4,000 for couples and $5,000 for families, with children. The plan would also allow employers to offer discounts for healthy habits, like non-smokers.
The "Access to Insurance for All Americans Act" was introduced July 31 by California Republican Darrell Issa. The plan would allow consumers to enroll in the same health care plan for lawmakers and federal employees. There's politician, who has been listening to us!
The "Patient Controlled Healthcare Protection Act" was introduced on July 31 by Texas Republican Louie Gohmert. This plan provides incentives for consumers to purchase private insurance with a high deductible while paying into an unlimited Health Savings Account.
So, for all the liberals, who would like all their friends and listeners to believe Republicans are simply the party of "No!", you should do a little more reading and a little less blustering!
Merril, the centerpiece of the republican plan is to allow health insurers to market across state lines. the result of this would a rush to the state with the least consumer protection, least regulation, and least enforcement. Scam health insurance companies would sprout up in these states (like MS, AL, SC), co-incidentally GOP strongholds...These companies would sell low cost insurance, then when patients submit claims, would deny payment. Think Bernie Madoff Health Insurance Company. This would represent a mind bogglingly huge transfer of wealth from blue states to red states.
Another problem with the republican plan is that their solubion to the pre-existing condition issue is to hand the problem to the states as an unfunded mandate. For them to claim that they deal with pre-existing conditions is truly deceitful. Also, a tax credit for health care provides absolutely no benefit to someone who's denied coverage due to pre-existing condition.
I do suport tort reform and was happy to see Obama include it in his updated plan. I also support options like proposed by Gohmert...consumers should have many options to choose from.
I'm self-employed and pay for an individual plan. I'd like to see changes that would allow me to deduct health care premiums as a business expense, just like big business does. Other wise I have to pay SE tax on the amount I'm spending on health care premiums!
joe you are woefully uninformed and you need to get some real information.
First if you are self employed all you have to do is set up a medical compensation plan that will allow you to reimburse yourself 100% for any medical costs. Additionally if you craft your medical plan right then you can also have the company pay for most or all of it with you only payiong a small portion. Both of these option allow your company to deduct this off of your corporate income tax. If you are an LLC or such then you can deduct 100% of your medical anyway if you list it as a reimbursement plan. Two main points to control this is that medical compensation cannot exceed more than 1/2 of your salary that you pay to yourself and any medical plan you offer to yourself must be also offered to any employees you hire for your company.
Both of these option not only allow you to deduct all of your medical expenses including co-pays and any deductables or percentages, but they also provide a tax break for your company.
Every tax break that is allowed a big company can also be taken advantage of by a small company like my S-corp and even LLC's. If you work as a subcontractor and take the money directly then you need to restructure as a business format and you need a much better accountant.
The republicans are no different than any other politician, they are seizing this opportunity to expand their influence. Both sides are corrupt power hungry scoundrels who only use different tactics to inflict their vision on the country. You want to get things done send all of these skunks home. Republicans and democrats. I dream big.
Each state has different laws regarding insurance. Are you saying you want the Federal law to overrule State law? If so, WOW. I also think this idea would make the big insurance companies even bigger and all but wipe out the smaller ones. The GOP knows this can't be done but say it anyway just to say they offered something but the Democrats won't listen to them. The problem with the GOP is they want it their way or no way.
thanks for the advice, usmcvet, but you don't understand my situation.
Does drilling down mean bend over?
mmm, it's clear that it's way too late for you. Sorry.
"work a little harder?" let's try work harder and more honestly than we ever have to bring true health care reform to all americans and give what an overwhelming majority of americans voters time and time again have said they want. while this gang of six represent their individual states what they are deciding will affect all of america; and all of america will hold them accountable if they continue to delay, water down and obfuscate what is best for america and americans to protect their corporate sponsors and campaign coffers.
Unfortunately you did not listen to Obama, he is not doing anything for healthcare reform it is all health insurance reform, It will come back to bite you in the rearend.
Be very careful about medical malpractice reform, we have it here in Texas.
I was given TB by a hospital here in Houston, they refused to pay for treatment. No lawyer will touch it as "there is no money in medical malpractice in Texas"
I feel very alone
Put a "non english speaking" patient in the same room as me in the middle of the night and then ignored him as he cried (and coughed) his way through the night.
It was the hospital that told me they suspected I may have TB when the test was positive told me to go on my way.
I am fully insured (which is irrelevant) and spend 4 days (& $54,000) in the hospital
Is Texas still a part of the United States? I thought we had rid ourselves of Texas.
In other words, your case has no merit, and the lawyers won't prosecute because they can't scam the system in Texas like they can in other states.
It is the same in other states. You CAN NOT get a lawyer to handle your case because the hospital will 'Black Ball' them. So you have to go to another city to obtain a lawyer.
Welcome to US health care, where many infections are caught post operative due to sanitation & ventilation problems in the hospital itself...... Negative pressure rooms that vent into other occupied areas of the hospital........ Infected operating room equipment.......... Doctors and RH's that DO NOT change protective equipment or wash between attending different patients........
Johndevine,
Where are you going to have the crude oil refined, if you rid yourself of TX???????? Also what about all the TAX money the Federal Gov is going to lose, that the TX oil produces are NOW paying???????
Tort reform means rampant murder of the American public.
The republican party has become the party of Wing Nuts and Right Wing Extremist Nut Jobs who oppose reform not based on facts, but based on deliberate distortions that they have been fed by their leaders.
They will believe ANYTHING and I mean ANYTHING they are told to believe. And they will repeat total nonsense. Even though there is NO PROPOSAL for a "Death Panel" or "Euthanasia" and anyone who reads the bill will see this, nonetheless they continue to pretend that it exists.
They have demonstrated astonishing dishonesty and stupidity. It is evident that they have no serious objections to the bill since their objections are based on nonsense that is not in the bill.
They are suckers, being played by their "leaders" who are bought and paid for by the Health Care Industry.
They should be ignored.
Yes, it is so much better to be part of a party that keeps you poor and collects money on 'your' behalf.
John, you probably send some guy $50 a month so you can go to heaven.
John which party is failing? Big business got bailed out and we are getting more and more poor people every day. Which party is failing? Keep sticking by these thieves, you gullible little boy.
Interesting how Pelosi's investment banker husband is now " investing" in the new govt companies that would handle healthcare. Out of one deep pocket(the insurance companies) and into a deeper pocket....Pelosi and Friends and Husband
WHAT A SHAM
John, you are very naive. At least there are some on the right who are excercising critical thinking in reviewing what is written in the bill. Even though there may not be intent for what you are making fun of, the reality is that the language is written such that it absolutely CAN be interpreted to mean those things. This is sloppy legislation that could allow future leaders to abuse the American public.
For them to to simply stand up there and deny that it is in the bill shows that they may actually want to keep those horrific options open in the future. If they were genuinely concerned about making sure these things won't ever happen, they would make an honest effort to acknowledge the poor writing and correct it to eliminate the concerns.
The notion that the government will control my health care is a republican fabrication designed to frighten the gullible republican base. It has not occurred in Medicare. Why do you think it would occur now?
The same type of people who opposed Social Security opposed Medicare and now oppose Health Care Reform using the exact same arguments, none of which turned out to be true. The republican opposition is based on fear, deliberately generated by republican and Democratic politicians who are taking money from the Health Care Industry.
I was in business for 20 years and dealt with United Health, Blue Cross and Blue Shield, Oxford Health. It was necessary to change companies as one after the other they increased their rates and reduced coverage. Between 2000 and 2005 the rates increased by 86% and coverage was repeatedly reduced. Employees were denied coverage for illness that occurred during the period of coverage, not a pre-existing condition. All of a sudden the declined to pay. When I discussed it with them they were adamant. Basically, they said they had paid enough and that was that.
I don’t know where they get the number $12,000 per year for family coverage. The best I was able to find was about $19,000.00 and employees quit because the coverage didn’t meet their needs. I found the Insurers to be dishonest, nasty scumbags.
It is not that I trust the government so much as it is that I distrust the Insurers totally.
John, if your claims are accurate, that is a government failure to adequately regulate insurance companies--it's not a failure of the insurance companies.
You just admitted that you don't really trust either one, so why would you support even a partial transition to a system where the fox is allowed to guard the hen house?
John, you must work for ACORN! I bet you think that is a great organization too. Or, you must be a complete IDIOT! The comments that are coming out of your mouth border on that coming from a moronic imbicle. Or, you are a stooge of the dummycratic party! Or you have never had to work for a living and draw a gov't check. I BET ITS ALL OF THE ABOVE. YOU SIR ARE A FOOL!
johndevine-
You now speak for the whole Republican party? Give me a break. You are the one that sounds like a sheep. I'm not a "wing nut" or an "extremist". I don't oppose reform in fact I believe the health care industry needs reform. However, I ALSO believe in reality. I ask questions like...how are we going to pay for this reform? (Obama didn't exactly spell that out very clearly during his address). I hope you would ask these questions as well. I'm sure you questioned the decisions Bush was making. Did that make you a "wing nut" or an "extremist"? The people ranting about "blood for oil" were just as delusional as those ranting about "euthanasia". Quit generalizing it makes you look very uninformed.
I would maintain the suckers are the followers of either party, we can pity them but they are hard to ignore they are quite numerous and rather shrill. You would be better served if you followed the advice of a brilliant leader when they said, "never trust a professional politician". Both party's suck unfortunately about 60to 70% of the population hasn't caught on yet.
I thought Pelosi was against drilling. Now she wants to drill down on everything. She might start by finding out what people want, not what she thinks is good for them (but not Congress).
I don't think she and her cabal understand the pain people and businesses have when she promotes higher taxes, increased government mandates and government spending. Maybe she should get off the Gulfstream somewhere other than DC, Europe, or Sonoma.
This constant attack on insurance companies is completely inappropriate. Don't get me wrong, I HATE dealing with insurance companies, and I completely agree that many practices of insurance companies should probably be changed. But THAT is not the responsibility of the insurance companies--that is the responsibility of our government.
Yet people are buying into this notion that is being peddled that the insurance companies can't be trusted, so the Government has to step in and rescue the American public from these evil companies. The more accurate picture is that OUR GOVERNMENT has failed to establish and maintain ground rules that require insurance companies to provide coverage for all. Without such a requirement, insurance companies are forced to drop high risk people in order to survive on the playing field where all the other insurance companies do the same thing.
EVERY company, insurance or otherwise, is going to seek the practices that generate the greatest profits--that's what companies do--ALL COMPANIES. For the President to stand up there, and smugly portray this as somehow evil on the part of the insurance companies is completely idiotic.
It is the Government's job it to establish ground rules under which companies operate to prevent them from taking unfair advantage of individuals, whether they be employees, vendors or customers. So who's fault is it really that our system is so screwed up? It is the Government's fault that our insurance system is screwed up, and it is our Government's responsibility to fix it.
Unfortunately, our government seems more intent on drawing lines in the sand than it is on actually fixing the problems. Even our President in his televised speech took the stick, and deepened the line in the sand that has been deepening for months. THAT makes me question his motive and intentions.
Whala, I agree with some of what you say. If our government had a better regulatory mechanism in place to police the insurance companies, there would not be nearly the clammor for reform that there is now. I'm sure you're aware how difficult is is to make the case for the required government boards (bureaucracies) , and the required government employees, the investigators and prosecutors and prison guards necessary to create a regulatory system with enough effectiveness and teeth to bring the companies into compliance. If any democrat so much as hinted at such a program, the GOP would have been screaming and moaning about "big government" and saying things like "democrats think they can solve every problem by throwing money at it. I don't think it helps to overly demonize insurance companies since they're all engaged in a very competitive business and the managers are doing what they think they have to do to succeed. We SHOULD have had better regulation of health insurance all along, just like we SHOULD have had better regulation of the financial industry. Yet how many republicans do you think would advocate a regulatory program that would increase the size of government. If violates their dogma, and we know how republicans love dogma.
Good post Whala. I wholeheartdly agree with you. The insurance companies have been made the scapegoat for this circus. What is the government doing about the complete medical industry? Doctors, hospitals, nurses, technicians, equipment mfgrs, pharma, and the list goes on... Funny, the only thing you EVER hear about is insurance. Kinda makes me think they really don't want to fix anything, just take it over.
It's a sad shame that there are 50,00 employees of big insurance companies who are spreading distortion and lies in order to support the evil ways of their employers. Example: town hall domestic terrorists.
So is anybody on this vine opposed to healthcare for all? Are we all willing to pay for it?
If it can be done in the most equitable way for all parties, are we for it?
What about the idea to hold out the Public Option as an "anti-carrot", or a "nuclear deterant" so to speak?
We have health care for all. Anyone can go to a hospital and get health care, even illegals.
I say we have a minimal of $2000 deductible, pay for services as you need them and if you have a major problem and can't come up with the $2000, you get a low interest government loan.
This way we cut out most of the bureaucracy. Doctors don't have to order tons of test, just to get paid and you only pay for what you want.
The problem is not who is running it so much, it is with what it has become. We can thank Kennedy for that, send a letter down there if you want.
Mike
A question: Where did you learn to read? Should I be taxed so your children can learn to read?
Mike, as are most of us. Earn it or simply do without.
I'm with you barefoot on the user pay system. I'd just as soon cut out the middle man all together, whether it be insurance companies or a government plan. Short of thatthough, HSA's are fantastic, and should be the primary way that people pay for health care. I believe that low co-pay plans should be illegal because they incentivise people to abuse their insurance coverage.
Mike
Where did YOU learn to read? My point is that somewhere in your life, more than likely, you have been a beneficiary of other peoples tax dollars, and you didn't earn that right, it was bestowed upon you.
Have you benefitted from school? Did other peoples money pave the way for your success?
An honest observation I have made is this:
People don't really mind "socialism" at all. They just want to pick and choose their own brand of it. It's the brand that will benefit themselves most.
People tend to recieve it gladly, but give it grudgingly, if at all.
That being said Mike, I do tend to agree with you about entitlements going to those who truly don't deserve them. The big problem seems to be separating the sheep from the goats.
How do we not throw the baby out with the bathwater?
Clarke, if you let people make money, the herds will thin out. Most people would rather earn money than have a handout.
The Democrat party likes to keep people needy of them, so they can collect money on 'their' behalf, that disgust me.
living
My third son Chris just got an $1,100 dollar bill from the local medical center for 4 stiches over his left eye. He would rahter have the money to pay for it also. The problem is that so few people are in the position to pull even $1,100 out of their own pocket (for 4 stitches)
Yeah, the whole friggin system is out of whack and needs reform. This is a societal problem of mind boggling proportions. This is a tug of war between two basic personality types, the sacrificial vs the self-absorbed.
The specifics are meaningless, the fruit is the inevitable outcome of the root.
Clarke, you have to shrink it before you can fix it. I stated I am for a low interest government loan for the higher deductibles for the emergencies requiring deductibles to be paid.
lvingbarefoot
It won't matter. If you happen to slip and fall and just get a cut on your forehead, then go to the emergency room, the doctors still have to order tons of labs and tests. Even if you walked in and said you just have a cut, they have to make you lay flat on the bed and wear a C-collar. X-rays, cat scans are all mandatory until they rule out neck and head injuries. All those needless tests and labs are defensive medicine to protect themselves and the hospitals against malpractice. Bulk of the healthworker's time is filling out paperwork and documentation. As of right now, there are just too many people sticking their hands into the slowly shrinking cookie jar and its the patient that is suffering.
You can thank the lawyers for that.
Stop the health care reform talk; it’s time to talks about Obama and his political circle that has followed Obama in to office
Do a search using the word group on any search engine:
“ ACORN pimp prostitute underage girls ”
And what will you find?
Acorn workers seen in multiple cases coaching people on how to bring underage girls in from South America to be used as prostitutes, and how to hide the income from the IRS and claim them as dependents while they are used a sex slaves.
This is coming from Obama’s main political action organization.
big gov't. never works -- it is really that simple
NASA was big government...they put a man on the moon...the Manhattan project was big government, they developed the atom bomb which ended WWII. CDC is big government, they're working to reduce the threat of swine flu. US Army is big government, they're saving your sorry, ungrateful ass from terrorists.
joe, let me re-phrase that for him. Big government is not economically efficient. They have no motivation to be.
Big Government is out-of-control spending, universal healthcare, printing money without accountability, bailing out failing big corporations, bailing them out again when they ran out of money again, bailing out banks who horded the money intended to help pay off toxic loans, buying bad shares of stock from banks effectively nationalizing our banking system, etc. The President, Congress, and Senate are supposed to run the Country not rule it. They are supposed to pass laws and sign laws that will benefit the whole of American not the elite of America.
mike and ashamed...I get it! Big government is whatever you need it to be in order to win an argument. Was it big government when we spent $2 trillion nation building in Iraq? Is it big government when we hand out $30 billion to corporate farmers whether or not they grow anything? It it big government when the government tries to prevent a family from carrying out the end of life wishes of a brain dead person (Schiavo)?
Just trying to figure out how far down the slippery slope you guys are.
Switzerland is number one in the world when it comes to health care and has national health care plan we are 27th in the world ...pretty simple...trust your gov. to protect your ass but you trust an insurance company to protect your health that makes no sense whatsoever
spudboy.................:
Apples and oranges can't be compared. Just for starters Switzerland has a population of just over 7 million people making it impossible to draw meaningful comparisons. If you want a meaningful comparison look to Canada, their system is about to become insolvent.
I trust an insurance company to do what ALL companies do--they seek profits, pure and simple. If dropping coverage is abusive, it is our GOVERNMENT that has FAILED to establish proper regulation to prevent such abuse.
To paint insurance companies as somehow evil for dropping coverage when the failure is our Government's responsibility is distorting the facts. Our congress and President is using this false portrayal as an excuse to overstep their position in our lives instead of simply fixing the wrongs that THEY THEMSELVES created.
If you want a meaningful comparison look to Canada, their system is about to become insolvent.
Jime,
Where did you get that idea
There's a huge difference between making an honest profit and blatant cold blooded murder. Insurance companies are doing the latter. The fact that the insurers colluded with Bush doesn't make either of them innocent. Bush was doing the same thing using Medicaid as his weapon.
Then don't get a swine flu shot if you can't trust your gov. But I see your point after bush we really shouldn't trust the gov.
Sorry, but Bush didn't have the corner on Washington corruption. He's gone, and there's more corruption than ever.
And no, I won't get a shot for the swine flu. I have no intention of being used as a statistic so they can pat themselves on the back trying to demonstrate how reliant we all are on the government to do everything for us.
Whala, I don't agree that "there's more corruption than ever"- at least not in the presidency. Bush was the biggest failure in our country's history. However, there was major corruption in the Reagan administration as well.
If you want to keep illegals from getting Obamacare, have people show IDs when they visit their doctor, a clinic, or the emergency room. This would make sure the emergency rooms are used for just that, emergencies.
I have to show my ID when I or my kids have to go to the local clinic because we can't get in to see our primary doctor. I have no problem with it whatsoever.
good idea if it would work, but it won't because a large percentage of them have false ID.
If they could revise E-verify to provide near instant results, the IDs could be verified. There are still those who could get through, but it would make it more difficult.
Then there's the situations where someone comes in who is critically ill without ID or with bad ID. It's still illegal to refuse treatment. I think that they should require the foreign government where they came from to cover the cost of their care in order to qualify for continued participation in NAFTA, or other trade agreements.
I pray that if I have a heart attack and am rushed to the Emergency Room that they don't delay my treatment while trying to decide whether or not I am a legal resident.
I suggest then that you take your pocket book with you so that:
a. you can pay your bill
b. prove you are entitled to take up the time and care of our health care system
We are paying for Obamas aunt right now as we speak and nothing is being done so what is he going to do with her.
I was under the impression that there was no question of illegal aliens getting the benefit of these taxpayer funded programs. I was assured this was so by no less than the President of the United States, as well as by virtually every other mainstream media outlet in this country. Now we find that it was all a lie, and that Representative Wilson, and those few contrary voices like his, were right all along. Trust this government, and its plans? I think not.
Are you really surprised? We are lied to constantly so get used to it, but pay very close attention to how things are said not what is said.
The bill clearly states illegal aliens aren't included in any coverage.
The argument is over the enforcement, not the law.
I understand that in the complexity of the laws in our country that if you have a health plan that is provided for all citizens of the U.S. they cannot deny access to anyone legal or illegal. It is a hidden provision that the President is well aware of since he is a lawyer and expert in Constitutional law. That is precisely why they changed the number eligible when the consensus came out.
I don't believe it, frankly. Noone has ever posted a citation to this. Please do. I find it especially hard to believe because the Republicans claim that their amendments requiring proof of citizenship would make the law acceptable....that doesn't make sense if what you say is true.
Here is an excerpt from a ruling in Texas in 1982 concerning illegal aliens and the school system, I would have to believe the 14th amendment would also cover illegals and health care?
Nor do the logic and history of the Fourteenth Amendment support such a construction. Instead, use of the phrase "within its jurisdiction" confirms the understanding that the Fourteenth Amendment's protection extends to anyone, citizen or stranger, who is subject to the laws of a State, and reaches into every corner of a State's territory. Pp. 210-216.
I believe the decision was Plyler v Doe.
If this is the case, illegals will legally have access to health care and obama the attorney does not know the law?
Dear ICSTARS-1 - your name says it all....true the bill may say illegals won't get coverage...again they will be illegal and if any of you were in healthcare you would know that anyone who goes to a hospital, whether or not they have insurance, CAN'T BE TURNED AWAY !! Thus they don't have government coverage, true, but they still are a drain on the economy and the hospital. Hospitals here give people with no coverage "charity care" and the hospital gets money from the state for providing services, but the doctors don't get paid for their services! Again, symantics, not on the government policy, but free care just the same.
Sickof- Has it ever occurred to you that the neocons are like little screaming babies who have to be bottle fed and placated? They have nothing positive to contribute. They whine and carry on because they are completely powerless and scared to death. So, they make up silly lies. They are clueless and out of touch about running this country and everyone knows it. They just keep screaming from their snake pit in hopes that they won't be forgotten.
What's so hard to understand , An illegal IS NOT ELIGIBLE FOR MEDICAL OR OTHER SERVICES an AMERICAN CITIZEN RECEIVES. Let them return to their native country. for help.
Bonman . . . that's right. Every illegal in this country should return to their country to get health care. We Americans will have to start beefing up the airlines immediately to get every colorless person back to Europe NOW!!!
Sorry let him return to Boliva,NO medical for ILLEGALS
Chicagorieco-1 - ALL doctors accept cash, as do mayors, senators, congressmen...you are all so ignorant and easily led with no real research on a subject....just keep flapping your gums.
We need to look at the whole bolloxed up situation and not just health insurance. Illegals are now treated primarily in emergency rooms which are essentially subsidized by those of us who pay and insurance companies. therefore, whether they are under the health care system or not, they will be. Doctors run extra tests especially in emergency rooms in order to avoid malpractice suits, a problem that could be solved if we had free flowing information on our medical records (but that seems to be a hot button issue).
I personally pay $381 a month for my health policy, that is a $10,000 deductible and a $1000 ded on pharmacological. Man that is so great I don't see how they can beat it.
Well I gotta hand it to you guys. It's written in black and white, with even a section heading in ALL CAPS that illegal aliens are not eligible under the new bill. And yet the Republicans keep repeating the lie that they can't support the bill because the oppose the inclusion of illegal aliens..... Just when I think the party has reach the epitome of hypocrisy and stupidity, they raise the bar.
the bill doesn't say HOW to enforce immigration policy. I don't know where you live but here in SW Arizona we are overwhelmed with illegals and our schools and health services can't keep up. If congress forces ALL people to show a government form of identification and proof of their citizenship then this bill would pass and this is coming from a 5th generation Republication. We can't keep going further and further in debt and allowing our citizens to lose their jobs by our dollars and jobs going overseas.
If there is nothing about enforcement, it passively allows coverage for illegals. We have laws that prevent illegals from working here, how is that working out?
See, here's what your liberal hero's FORGOT to put in the bill, "provisions verifying legal status before an individual can get coverage".
Yes, it stated that Undocumented Aliens couldn't get health coverage, but it also ignored many requests by the villainous Republicans to add verbiage to check status, a nice little Sen Dodd like loophole to get around that, seeing how you liberals love the illegals.
Now, thanks to that rude SC Senator, the right thing may get done.
So, odumbo was a liar! Facts are facts! Good call SC Senator!
No, illegals are not to be covered under the proposed Bill, however existing LAW states anyone who goes to an emergency room for treatment cannot be denied treatment.
SO, where does it say anywhere that that LAW will be rescinded? You see it's not what is said or written, it's what is not said or written and what you're not told in plain English. Bottom line is that it is a lie by omission. What make it worse is the fact that it is being done with fully knowledge.
It is freakin' in black and white already that illegal aliens are not eligible. Have you EVER applied for health coverage without submitting your government-issued identification? No! What is your problem?!
You see the "catch" is the dems voted "against" having to have proof of citizenship to obtain coverage.. gee wonder why don't you...so anyone can walk in and say sure I'm a citizen now help me or heck just pay for it for me..it's kind of like letting the barn door open for one and all...so yes they will be covered by the barn door or the back door...it is all in the wording and guess what some people actually read this stuff and can say YOU LIE!!!
If it is so freakin "black and white" then why are the Dems scrabling to make sure that Joe Wilson was lying about a lie. He wasnt lying, your messiah was lying.....
It's not in crayon though, IC....
It really doesn't matter if illegal immigrants are not covered in the Presidents health care plan. Under our laws hospitals can not refuse service to someone in need. So the tax payer will still get stuck with the bill.
It's amazing how gullible ignorant hate mongers are when it suits their interests.
If you think anyone on Obama's staff is reading any of this you are sadly mistaken. The goverment doe not care about the working people anymore. They don't care that we're footing the bills for the illegal immigrants. And I don't think women who come across the border and have their babies her should be allowed to have the babies considered legal citizens. That's another slap in our face. And they should not be able to receive any government assistance.
Your so correct, about all issues you mentioned, unfortunately. It's amazing huh, we reward those who break our country's laws. Oh, wait we do that all the time.
It will only be a matter of time, and I hope it not to late, for those who got pulled into this BS he was shoveling to the American public, to realize just what he, obama has planned for this great country. Yea, we've messed up in the past but no country has done more to make up, and a lot more for it's misgivings, but some thrive living in the past, and to some it's good business. Look toward the future!
Ms. Shell, that's it. No one here should receive health care except the REAL Americans- those who's ancestors have been here for over 13,000 years. All euroamericans can die in the gutters.
I know for a fact that (as of a few years back when I worked on an obstetrics unit) one form of medicaid abuse that sometimes took place... non-citizens from over seas country would travel to the U.S. and use a relative or friend's medicaid card to pay for delivery of a baby and hospital costs ...and then have baby who is a "documented" citizen who qualified for all citizen benefits...even when they did not remain in this country...as the paperwork showed the mother to be a documented resident here, with a U.S. address (the person who actually owned the medicaid card). It happened frequently... a visitor would ask to see their relatives baby... the "Smith" baby...employee would look through patient list...we do not have anyone by the name of "Smith" admitted here...visitor would walk down hall to a patient room...return a few minutes later...No, I mean I want to see the "Doe" baby. I never saw anything done about any of these situations, although nurses did try to report this fraud at times, so possibly something has been done to prevent this now. If not, this bill should be written with provisions that will attempt to prevent this type of fraud in which some illegally here not only fraudulently receive tax funded medical care in this way...using someone else's medicaid card, but do so as to then qualify for up to eighteen years of tax funded child assistance payments...for a child who may not even remain in this country as the parent is not a citizen. Truthfully, it seems like a security threat, as well, to have "citizens" born here (this has gone on for years, so many of these babies are now adults), that we really do not know true identity of or place of actual residence.
The illegal immigrants will receive their health care in the EMERGENCY ROOM