What tiny part of "mainstream America" do you live in?

The GOP should be ASHAMED of their despicable, underhanded attempts to stir people up and stifle needed reforms. They're brainwashing their people by telling them lies.

It will backfire on "The Party of NO," as it ALWAYS does.....

How are they out of touch? Polls have shown overwhelming support for healthcare reform, and that's what the Democrats are working on, with reasoned input from the public.

The press is as much to blame as anyone. The individuals who are upset are both Reps and Dems. There is a lot of misinformation. Unfortunately, there is no clear answer from the proposed bill to answer the questions.

There is even a great misunderstanding about the polls. It is expected that a majority of the population would like to see health care reform. The very unfortunate result is that those supporting the current proposal are using this poll result as support for the proposed package from this administration. The health care proposal is not "reform", it is change. The debate should be focused on the change, and which families it hurts and which families it helps.

From what I have seen both the Democrats and Republicans are outraged at this plan...Name one country that has taken on this type of a program with success?

No kidding.... I thought mainstream Americans at least knew how to spell. Po-dunk is NOT mainstream! I am gladly out of touch with the ignorant.

Mark L - I can name NINE countries that have had success with various forms of government-sponsored health care coexisting with private care: France, Germany, the Netherlands, the United Kingdom, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, South Africa, Israel.

Why do all the dems assume we fiscal conservatives are all small-minded rednecks? I am an intelligent/educated individual that can look at all news/information outlets and form my own opinion. I listen to right wig AND left wing radio. I watch Fox and MSNBC.

We agree on one thing, reform is needed. A complete overhaul is not. Let's start with tort reform and the medical/welfare programs that the Gov currently runs inefficiently/ineffectively before creating new expensive programs. I was listening to "America Left" on Sirius on Monday afternoon and there was a Canadian spokesperson talking about how the Canada healthcare systems works. When asked about malpractice insurance costs for doctors, he admitted that Canada is much less litigious than the United States and the malpractice insurance their doctors pay is negligible. The dems do not want to address tort reform, but this is a big reason why our healthcare costs are so high. As for the programs already handled by the Gov (medicare, etc.), don't even get me started.

All of the people wanting the Government to watch over them and take care of them are fooling themselves. Try working with the Federal Government on a daily basis (like I do!) and reevaluate. I PROMISE you'd change your mind. Promise.

ken it wasn't on the list cause only you think everyone thinks that. unfortunately for you showed how smart you are with your spelling of democrat and therefore negated any further argument as to your intelligence.

The Grand Obstructionist Party said back in 2005 they would never be out of power. I believe they are in total psychoic(SP) denial over the whole loss of power and that they cannot believe that they lost. the Grand Obstructionist Party will do ANYTHING to get that power back.

Just say no, to the Party of the No!!!!

And thats just the way it is, and thats just my opinion.

Scary that most of you seem to think that this Health Care Reform is a good idea. I guess most of you are ok with you tax dollars going to free health care for Illegal immigrants.

There are over 300 million people in the US and we're going to reform the entire system just for 46 million who aren't covered?

I'd be willing to bet that in this group of 46 million, there are many who can afford to pay for health insurance but refuse to do so.

Very clever labeling protestors as republicans only, and non-protestors as democrats. It's either completely narrow minded, or political genius. I like the wording in the choices too. No bias or hoping to hit bruises any where in there at all. Don't get sucked in folks. Think outside the box.

I don't think supporters of the reform bills have done anything wrong, and as long as violence stays non-existant, that protestors have done anything wrong either. Disagreement is healthy and when people get passionate about topics can get rowdy. You don't have to like people's point of view, but don't silence them or disregard them for expressing it.

It is the Democratic congress and the LEFT wing media that are trying to push this down our throats. If the demonstrations were something that a Republican President had proposed then the media would be organizing trips to Washington and carrying the demonstrations on the News 24/7. This is no longer Republicans that are supporting these demonstrations but concerned citizens of all political parties who see that this is going to put their Children and grandchildren and great grandchildren in debt for their whole lives. No one has any idea how much this is going to cost! How many trillions (what is after a Trillion?) of dollars will this cost. Socialized medicine doesn't work in Canada or England what makes you think it will work here? What will happen to our elderly when some Washington idiot says they may not live long enough for the cost of surgery to be viable. (let them die they have outlived their usefulness).  What you propose is that Health Care will not be available for anyone who can't afford to go to Mexico for treatment or pay extremely high prices for private Doctors. And your President and Congress Men and Women will go to what will be Private facilities just for them. Your local hospitals will become clinics where you have to have an appointment for the Emergency Room.

A.Doria's comment pretty much sums up the ignorance around this issue. Our health care system is irretrievably broken, but we want to pretend its not.

No one said healthcare reform would be easy or pretty. But you have to at least be willing to have a conversation and offer ideas as alternatives. The opponents of reform aren't willing to do either. They want to shut down the debate all together. There's a difference between getting rowdy and just disrupting meetings to shut them down. Sorry, folks, but healthcare reform as an issue is NEVER going to go away. Even if you manage to oust Obama in 2012, its going to come back again.

The irony here is that health care reform is like an illness. We can blow it off for now, only treat the surface symptoms, but if we do its only going to get worse to the point that it may just kill us. (metaphorically speaking, of course.)

A.Doria: Its about more than covering the uninsured! Its supposed to be about lowering overall cost. But with the Blue Dogs and centrist Democrats (DINO's) hooking up with the insurance lobby it will be just another pay day for corporate America. If there is no REAL Public Option than the bill isn't worth signing and I hope Obama has the spine to veto it!

Read This!

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/09_33/b4143034820260.htm

Irretrievably broken? I think not.

There does need to be reform...just not in the way it is being proposed by Congress/Obama.

fourseasons

Why do all the dems assume we fiscal conservatives are all small-minded rednecks? I am an intelligent/educated individual that can look at all news/information outlets and form my own opinion. I listen to right wig AND left wing radio. I watch Fox and MSNBC.

We agree on one thing, reform is needed. A complete overhaul is not. Let's start with tort reform and the medical/welfare programs that the Gov currently runs inefficiently/ineffectively before creating new expensive programs. I was listening to "America Left" on Sirius on Monday afternoon and there was a Canadian spokesperson talking about how the Canada healthcare systems works. When asked about malpractice insurance costs for doctors, he admitted that Canada is much less litigious than the United States and the malpractice insurance their doctors pay is negligible. The dems do not want to address tort reform, but this is a big reason why our healthcare costs are so high. As for the programs already handled by the Gov (medicare, etc.), don't even get me started.

All of the people wanting the Government to watch over them and take care of them are fooling themselves. Try working with the Federal Government on a daily basis (like I do!) and reevaluate. I PROMISE you'd change your mind. Promise.

You do well opening up with the notion that you are an intelligent/educated individual that listens to both sides.

So here is my question to you:

What exactly is the alternative from the opposing standpoint?

See the part that gets missed here is those who are fighting for the insurance companies and against reform, are going to get screwed.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/14/AR2009051403866.html?hpid=topnews

They WILL raise premiums and provide less service as the have been doing all along. Bet on it.

BO said, "It’s the post office that's always having problems." So why would anyone think they would do better with the complications of HC? I could not vote, there was not a option for my opinion. It is not only the Republicans that are pissed there are also many Democrats and non-mainstream party folks protesting Washington's power grab also.

fourseasons,

I agree with you in the need for tort reform in this area. Ironically as you point out in cases where the Government (Canada) is the litigated party lawsuits are minimized. Sounds like your making an argument for single payer system as in Canada.

Despite the fact we don't agree on the best solution I respect your civil tone ; unlike the majority of those posting,

Richard Schloss- United Kingdom is the 3rd largest employer in the world putting three pencil pushers to every one doctor, you have to wait on the average of 5 months to get a slipped disk taken care of with no compensation for the time that you are missing work. As for France, It must be working...that's why the government made a public statement to the United States Government pleading us to not adopt a public plan.

Shame on the Democrats for brainwashing their people with lies. Today's Republican is yesterday's Democrat. Todays Democrat is a Socialist. The Conservative movement? No one controls it, and that's the problem. Busch pre-socilised America, and Obama is pushing hard to finish the job. Conservative people are angry, because NO ONE represents them in Washington!

The Democrats for being out of touch with mainstream America? I see. That's why they won decisive majorities in almost every election.

The problem is "mainstream" is code for "people who think like you" not the true middle of the political bell curve. That segment, the 80% that aren't ardently liberal (far left leaning) or radically conservative (no new govt, no new taxes, no matter what), want reform of the health care systems and insurance programs.

And, lies aside, the direction we were headed was going to be far less radical than the opposition (the wealthy, the CEO level execs who would be faced with a labor force not tethered to their jobs due to health insurance, the for-profit insurance monopolies, etc).

Please pay closer attention: 40+ million people without healthcare insurance, 50th in the world for life expectancy, medical care costlier than any other industrialized nation, more preemie deaths than some third-world countries. Why are you scared and confused? You probably are already insured. Think about the people who are not.

I think you are out of touch...

do these same right wingers think that they lost the election because the majority of the country is "stupid" .... OMG ... grow up ... change is just that - change .. and the only change we got when they controlled both the house, senate and whitehouse was the loss of honesty and adherence to basic core values of a democracy. You lost - get over it - and stop lying about this and every program. We got here thanks to you .. if in 4 years this is still the situation - you may have a point - until then.. shut up and sit down!

We insure the most medically expensive portion of our population, the elderly, for 1.45% of our paycheck, matched by the employer. Healthcare premiums for the more healthy portion of our population are ten times as high. Something stinks here.

The remark on "Immigrants" with free health care - Please, go to an emergency room and ask how many have been turned away in the last 8 years. Most "illegals" get healthcare FREE through ER's. Ironically - I wonder if you are a person that turns the other cheek, passes out loaves of bread to your neighbors, tithes to your church (tax free), but hates to pay taxes for the common good? Anyway, Hopefully once healthcare reform has begun and immigration reform starts - illegals will be paying taxes and can get affordable health insurance so your insurance will be cheaper in the long view.

I guess it's not really fair to label all Republicans as the crazies who are pushing this madness, but they did open the door for it by going to the right wing for support in past elections and bringing lying to the public to a new level (think Karl Rove.) So whether they all agree, they did bring this mess on themselves, and they need to start digging their way out from under it. A little bit of standing up and opposing the extreme right-wingers and getting involved in meaningful debate about the issues facing Americans would be a good first step.

Mark, the 36 countries ahead of us on the list of heath care that's better than us and cost 1/2 as much for twice the service than we have.

I have a list of questions that I never hear anyone on the right or in the anti-Obama/anti-reform crowd answer. I don’t expect you to answer all of the questions at any one time (although it would be interesting), but you certainly could pick three or four and give a honest factual answer*.

1. Why are we the only industrialized nation in the world that does not have universal health care?
2. Why are we the only nation in the world that allows insurance companies to deny coverage because of pre-existing conditions?
3. Why do Republicans say that a government run health insurance system will be more costly than a private system when actual administrative costs for Medicare are just 3% of the total expenditure and for private insurers are 14% of the total?
4. Why do Republicans claim that private insurance companies are better run than any government system would operate but then whine that a government system would be too efficient for private insurers to compete against? President Obama insists that a public system must be self-sufficient and not subsidized by taxpayers so it would be a level playing field.
5. Why are 31% of health care costs in the U.S. spent on administrative expenses while less than half of that expense occurs in single payer government run systems around the world? Over $1000.00 per person per year is spent on health care administrative costs in the USA.
6. Why do we rank 37^th in overall quality of care and 72^nd in overall health of 191 countries evaluated? The facts are that virtually every nation with universal care spends far less on their health care than we do with far better results.
7. Why do French men live three years longer than American men? Don’t they drink a lot, smoke a lot, and eat rich food? Could it be that their health care is far better than ours?
8. Why, if we have the most technology and spend the most money on health care, do we rank 29^th in infant mortality rate? The rate our babies die in their first year is twice that of European nations. Why is it acceptable to Republicans to kill our babies unnecessarily?
9. Why would Republicans worry that a government bureaucracy would get between the patient and the doctor when they find it acceptable for private insurance companies do that right now?
10. Why, if Canadians have to come to the US for timely treatment as Republicans claim, are our border states’ hospitals not overrun with Canadians? Could it be that the vast majority of Canadians getting care in the US are doing so because they get sick during their 2-3 months as “snowbirds” in Hilton Head, Myrtle Beach, and West Palm Beach? Studies by legitimate independent researchers do not support the antidotal “evidence” in the GOP ads.
11. Why are we are spending 50% more of our GDP on health care costs than any other nation? The average annual costs for countries with universal health care is 10% of GDP. France, with the best health care in the world, pays just 11% of their GDP versus our 16% of GDP.
12. Why, if Republicans are concerned about costs for businesses and the government, do they support a system that spends so much more of our business profits and government receipts (taxes) on health care than all other countries?
13. Why, if adjudication costs are going down (a statistical fact), are malpractice insurance costs continuing to rise? (More profits for the insurance companies?!?!).
14. Why do the top 5% of Americans use 50% of health care expenditures?
15. If our average American is getting “the best health care in the world” for an average insurance cost of $12,000.00; what do the Rolls Royce plans provide for $40,000.00? What is it that the wealthy are getting for their insurance dollars that the average American is not? Private rooms do not cost that much. Could it be that the best health care in the world is reserved for only the wealthy?
16. Why, if Republicans are worried about the bottom line, did they pass the Medicare drug bill without the ability to negotiate costs with drug companies? The result is that Medicare is paying 77% higher drug costs than other governments do.
17. Why, if Republicans are worried about deficits, did they pass the Medicare drug bill without a means to pay for it? President Obama has said that health care reform will be budget neutral and has reinstated PayGo requirements for congress. (PayGo = all new expenditures must be balanced by reductions elsewhere or paid for by new revenues).
18. Why are we one of only two countries in the world that permits television advertising of prescription drugs?
19. Why do Republicans say that there are ways of taking care of the problems with the health insurance industry and delivery of care other than what the Democrats want to do, yet they offer no actual plans that stand scrutiny?
20. Why, if Republicans have a better way of fixing health care as they claim, did they not do it during the Bush administration?
21. How do we claim a higher moral standing than others when we find it acceptable to make a profit on the misery and illnesses of our citizens when all other nations believe it is morally reprehensible to treat their people that way?
22. Why are the same “moral and Christian value” politicians who stopped health care reform fifteen years ago still putting insurance companies and private for-profit providers ahead of the citizens they claim to represent?

How can anyone argue against reform after honestly answering the above questions.

*All data and statistics used in the questions are from reliable and verifiable sources and not from liberal or conservative groups or organizations. The data may be found and verified easily through simple Google searches.

Mark L-464288 ; [comment 1.20]

Please link the article where France "made a public statement to the United States Government pleading us to not adopt a public plan."

I want to see your source on that... and I'd be interesting in reading it's details

The GOP, because they're acting like insurance industry whores. So bend over righties. The groups they are busing around the country to infiltrate polite discussions on a subject the insurance industry doesn't want discussed at all. Those groups are the true "ignorant American", a lackey, from the stand point they really don't know what they're ranting about, but they'll be damned if they'll allow anyone with half a brain to discuss options. Not just one streamline into a health care bill, but any discussion what-so-ever. I'm mean if the insurance industry can't rape their own country, what's the World coming to?

And I'm not saying that President Obama is completely correct in his direction. These town hall meetings are designed so the average person can make a point or 10 for all I care. But at least they're trying to discuss it rationally. But the GOP lackeys refuse to allow discussion.

Gattes12 - The link you posted referenced life insurance, not health insurance. Because of the economy's condition it is expected that people would drop their life insurance coverage while they struggle to pay their "necessity" bills (shelter, food, utilities, etc) and the reduction of insured will natually have an effect on that industry. You mention that without reform, the insured will be paying higher amounts for less coverage. My fear is that with this healthcare package that is definitely where we'll be headed...paying a higher amount in taxes, but recieving less service. Bottom line (and my mind will never change on this one, so we'll just have to respectfully disagree) - I am for smaller government and lower taxes. Knowing firsthand of the ineffeciencies of the Gov, I will never want this level of gov involvement in my healthcare. I am glad that we can have a civil discussion though.

Maurice-311399 - I think you may be reading into my words a little too much. I was not advocating for the single payer system of Canada. I should have been more clear. The Canadian rep on the radio mentioned that Canada is less litigious as a country (this has to do with policy that discourages malpractice suits and the collective mentality of the Canadian citizens to avoid unnecessary lawsuits). Our leaders have to be a catalyst for change in this area...if the politicians do not support tort reform we will always have a culture of lawsuit happy people. I am glad you appreciate my tone, I appreciate yours as well. If only our elected officials could be so respectful, we might end up with healtcare that alll (or most) support.

Scary that most of you seem to think that this Health Care Reform is a good idea. I guess most of you are ok with you tax dollars going to free health care for Illegal immigrants.

There are over 300 million people in the US and we're going to reform the entire system just for 46 million who aren't covered?

I'd be willing to bet that in this group of 46 million, there are many who can afford to pay for health insurance but refuse to do so.

"

Your ignorance is astounding, but not surprising. The 46 million (or more) uninsured are hard-working American citizens who either don't earn enough money to buy good basic coverage, or they have been dumped by the insurance companies for some stupid reason having to do with insurance greed. I know, I have been there myself.

But your ignorance is only trumped by your selfishness. You would deny good healthcare to 46 million hardworking Americans just so you could deny it to a few undocumented workers? You deserve exile at the very least.

Sure can tell it is a state run media biased survey because they didn't mentioned that the Democrats are so out of touch with the American people that they are mostly to blame for this mess!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ed,

I'm not denying anyone...as stated in another post above I think that the system needs to be reformed but not in the way it is being proposed by the government.

And I sure as hell don't want anymore of my tax dollars that I have worked VERY HARD for going to illegal immigrants. And it's not a "few undocumented workers" (as you so simply stated)...try millions. If you're so happy to put up the money for them to get free health care, by all means, please go ahead and do so.

I am an American living in England for the past 4 years and I have experienced first hand what universal health care is like...it scares me to think that you would like to have this kind of system.

Don't you realize what's going to happen should this reform pass with health care for illegals as part of it? The US will be flooded by millions more who are coming to leech off of the society.

But I guess it's selfish of me to think about all of the taxes that I will eventually be paying along with my children and grandchildren just to pay for a health care reform that no one in Congress has even read.

adoria:

Scary that most of you seem to think that this Health Care Reform is a good idea. I guess most of you are ok with you tax dollars going to free health care for Illegal immigrants.

This reform does not include free health care for illegals; and hellllloooooo, just who do you think pays for them now with tax dollars??

buzzorn:

Sure can tell it is a state run media biased survey because they didn't mentioned that the Democrats are so out of touch with the American people that they are mostly to blame for this mess!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dems are so out of touch??? Guess you'd conclude that only because you don't realize that duhhhhhhhhhh, almost all medical corporations are owned by Repubs!!! Do your homework before you spout!!! That's the trouble with the screaming and ranting at the meetings; the people doing it are only doing it because that's what they were told, not that they even bothered to do any research for themselves!!! Duhhhhhhhhhh!

If the repubs are so brimming now with great ideas about health care reform, what were they doing when Dumbya was in, and they had both houses? Oh I forgot, trying to create wars ... sorry.

One good thing re: this health care debate though ... don't have to see Cheney's ugly mug on TV every day.

To Fourseasons: Senator Claire McCaskill of Missouri said yesterday at her townhall that in Missouri, where they had tort reform, it didn't reduce healthcare costs at all. I'm not saying tort reform isn't a good thing, but it's another piece of misinformation that's going around that takes focus off the real problems. Insurance companies, who have had profits have increase 400% are a bigger issue and they have the most to lose with reform, so they are at the heart of the misinformation. Bill Moyers had a wonderful interview with a man named Potter, a retired executive from Cigna, that is worth watching.

Ron Christman,

Thanks for an excellent summarising of so many facts. It would be interesting to have a civil discussion rather than the lunatic ravings.

I suspect that the Insurance companies are being kept busy documenting who these posters are as they will need this info when it comes time to deny their mental health claims in the future due to "pre-existing" conditions. What more proof will they need ?

Riiiiight. Remember when our president won by a LANDSLIDE? Maybe that should be a small hint that most people in America agree with him and support his decisions.

maurice - Several weeks ago I jokingly said that the GOP should want health care reform that had increased mental health evaluations and mental health treatment because there were so many seemingly crazy people on the right. Little did I know that these folks would turn my joke into a factual statement.

Ron...have you ever received medical treatment in a country with socialized healthcare? I have...and I'll vote down anything that will have us like them. I hated the care I received...and I hated waiting and waiting....and waiting...or how about the heart defect in my child that the doctor failed to tell me about for two years because 9 times out of 10 it is nothing...but in my child it was something...but no need to pay for expensive tests...because it was unneeded....until you have experienced it first hand...don't pretend to know that it is a better system.

Here is a copy of the Health Care Reform Bill in the House:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/17352956/House-Health-Reform-Bill

All 1018 pages of it...

Little gems from the Health Care Bill
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=903496 ^

Posted on Friday, July 24, 2009 7:12:23 PM by CMS

• Page 16: States that if you have insurance at the time of the bill becoming law and change, you will be required to take a similar plan. If that is not available, you will be required to take the gov option!
• Page 22: Mandates audits of all employers that self-insure!
• Page 29: Admission: your health care will be rationed!
• Page 30: A government committee will decide what treatments and benefits you get (and, unlike an insurer, there will be no appeals process)
• Page 42: The "Health Choices Commissioner" will decide health benefits for you. You will have no choice. None.
• Page 50: All non-US citizens, illegal or not, will be provided with free healthcare services.
• Page 58: Every person will be issued a National ID Healthcard.
• Page 59: The federal government will have direct, real-time access to all individual bank accounts for electronic funds transfer.
• Page 65: Taxpayers will subsidize all union retiree and community organizer health plans (example: SEIU, UAW and ACORN)
• Page 72: All private healthcare plans must conform to government rules to participate in a Healthcare Exchange.
• Page 84: All private healthcare plans must participate in the Healthcare Exchange (i.e., total government control of private plans)
• Page 91: Government mandates linguistic infrastructure for services; translation: illegal aliens
• Page 95: The Government will pay ACORN and Americorps to sign up individuals for Government-run Health Care plan.
• Page 102: Those eligible for Medicaid will be automatically enrolled: you have no choice in the matter.
• Page 124: No company can sue the government for price-fixing. No "judicial review" is permitted against the government monopoly. Put simply, private insurers will be crushed.
• Page 127: The AMA sold doctors out: the government will set wages.
• Page 145: An employer MUST auto-enroll employees into the government-run public plan. No alternatives.
• Page 126: Employers MUST pay healthcare bills for part-time employees AND their families.
• Page 149: Any employer with a payroll of $400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays an 8% tax on payroll <>BR • Page 150: Any employer with a payroll of $250K-400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays a 2 to 6% tax on payroll
• Page 167: Any individual who doesnt' have acceptable healthcare (according to the government) will be taxed 2.5% of income.
• Page 170: Any NON-RESIDENT alien is exempt from individual taxes (Americans will pay for them).
• Page 195: Officers and employees of Government Healthcare Bureaucracy will have access to ALL American financial and personal records.
• Page 203: "The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax." Yes, it really says that.
• Page 239: Bill will reduce physician services for Medicaid. Seniors and the poor most affected."
• Page 241: Doctors: no matter what speciality you have, you'll all be paid the same (thanks, AMA!)
• Page 253: Government sets value of doctors' time, their professional judgment, etc.
• Page 265: Government mandates and controls productivity for private healthcare industries.
• Page 268: Government regulates rental and purchase of power-driven wheelchairs.
• Page 272: Cancer patients: welcome to the wonderful world of rationing!
• Page 280: Hospitals will be penalized for what the government deems preventable re-admissions.
• Page 298: Doctors: if you treat a patient during an initial admission that results in a readmission, you will be penalized by the government.
• Page 317: Doctors: you are now prohibited for owning and investing in healthcare companies!
• Page 318: Prohibition on hospital expansion. Hospitals cannot expand without government approval.
• Page 321: Hospital expansion hinges on "community" input: in other words, yet another payoff for ACORN.
• Page 335: Government mandates establishment of outcome-based measures: i.e., rationing.
• Page 341: Government has authority to disqualify Medicare Advantage Plans, HMOs, etc.
• Page 354: Government will restrict enrollment of SPECIAL NEEDS individuals.
• Page 379: More bureaucracy: Telehealth Advisory Committee (healthcare by phone).
• Page 425: More bureaucracy: Advance Care Planning Consult: Senior Citizens, assisted suicide, euthanasia?
• Page 425: Government will instruct and consult regarding living wills, durable powers of attorney, etc. Mandatory. Appears to lock in estate taxes ahead of time.
• Page 425: Goverment provides approved list of end-of-life resources, guiding you in death.
• Page 427: Government mandates program that orders end-of-life treatment; government dictates how your life ends.
• Page 429: Advance Care Planning Consult will be used to dictate treatment as patient's health deteriorates. This can include an ORDER for end-of-life plans. An ORDER from the GOVERNMENT.
• Page 430: Government will decide what level of treatments you may have at end-of-life.
• Page 469: Community-based Home Medical Services: more payoffs for ACORN.
• Page 472: Payments to Community-based organizations: more payoffs for ACORN.
• Page 489: Government will cover marriage and family therapy. Government intervenes in your marriage.
• Page 494: Government will cover mental health services: defining, creating and rationing those services.

I agree with Ken H that it's the congressmen & women who are voting for what they want, and not serving their constituents in this matter. People are sick of not being heard and when the leaders come to these town hall meetings and act like they don't care, people are getting stirred up. I also resent the fact that those that are getting "stirred up" are considered Republicans only. I have seen plenty of news coverage showing that there are Democrats as well that are unhappy with this health care plan.

oh please... if that were the case republicans would have maintained at least ONE of their seats in congress.

Last I checked, the majority elected "DOMOCROTS" (your term, not mine) to office. I think we're on the verge of another Civil War. If so, sign me up with the Domocrots. I'm ready to fight, kill and yes, die for what I believe in. I'm sick of the radical right trying to disrupt the peaceful and free exchange of ideas.

In response to the above question, "who comes out of this worst?" I have to answer that our press comes out worst. The Democrats are trying to pass a bill that covers the uninsured, for better or worse. The Repubs are doing their best to block that bill, for a variety of reasons. We have a press that has a responsibility to wade through the legal jargon and tell us what's in these bills. Something has to counter the lies and smears. I guarantee Obama has misrepresented parts of the bill. I know for sure the Right wingers have as well.

Why do our news outlets present people screaming at each other with little or no discussion of what they're actually screaming about?

If you're curious who comes out of this looking the worst, there is only one answer. It is our alleged 4th branch of gov't.

yes, they're out of touch with the majority of Americans, which is how they won all three branches of the government last november...

Of course, the majority voted in 60 Democratic senators as a ruse, not because the majority supports them...

Also, A.Doria, your breakdown of the bill is BS. I love the bolded part (page 426 i think) about the "government decides how your life ends." There are no death panels you moron. It's a bunch of baloney.

you clearly did not read the bill and are only copy/pasting something you probably got in an email...

Ron...have you ever received medical treatment in a country with socialized healthcare? I have...and I'll vote down anything that will have us like them. I hated the care I received...and I hated waiting and waiting....and waiting...or how about the heart defect in my child that the doctor failed to tell me about for two years because 9 times out of 10 it is nothing...but in my child it was something...but no need to pay for expensive tests...because it was unneeded....until you have experienced it first hand...don't pretend to know that it is a better system.

Then what explains the numbers that America pays double per capita compared to any other country on health care, yet by every measurable statistic from infant mortality to life expectancy we are less healthy?

It is interesting that a number of people commented on the bill. Actually there are 12 bills, 7 of which are not under serious consideration at this time. There are three bills in the House and two in the Senate under consideration. There are six GOP bills (3 each in the House and Senate) that were never given any serious consideration because they were so sketchy and had no benefits or numbers associated with them. One Demovratic bill in the Senate appears to have been eliminated. Eventually there will be one bill from each the House and the Senate. Each bill will pass in its own chamber and fail in the other chamber. They will then be sent back to committee for compromise/reconciliation and then both chambers will vote on the final bill with passage likely. This is the way it works, and we are far, far from a final bill at this point. So lots of people are pointing to things they do not like in a bill, of in the bills in total, but it is meaningless at this point because there is no "The Bill."

President Obama is not only a Constitutional scholar but is a strict Constitutional constructionist. The Constitution says that the sole authority to write and pass legislation belongs to Congress. While the President can make suggestions, it is Constitutionally out of his hands until a Bill is placed on his desk to sign or veto. In reality, no bill that he would not sign will make it to his desk because there aren't enough votes in Congress to override a veto.

So when people tell you all about what is in "The Bill" or "Obama's Bill", etc, they are not being factual. If you want to see what Obama advocates, it hasn't changed since he began running for President. Here is a link to go look:

http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/issues/HealthCareFullPlan.pdf

We have a number of "socialist" health care plans already in place and they have not changed this country. Medicare, MedicAid, the VA Hospital system, TriCare, the military medical systems, county and local indigent care programs, etc.

Did you know that no Republican, who was a Republican at the time of the vote, voted for Medicare or any of its five enablings acts (except for the disastrous Part D)?

This is the USA and everyone has a right to their opinion on HC. We should be able to have a civilized conversation about the HC system in this country. What is happening at those town hall meetings is just stupidity at it's best. What we call health care in this country is broken and somebody has to at least try to do something about it. The Replublicans that were in office for the last 6-8 years didn't think there was anything wrong. A great majority of hard working americans in this country can't afford medical care even if they have insurance.

I have health care with my employer, which makes me one of the lucky ones. The new company that my job has right now is charging me more this year for less coverage and I don't have a choice. On 6-20-09 I had to go to the ER last month and was there for 2 hours. The hospital charged my insurance $895.39 & $81.38 (total $976.77). That's one and a half more then my rent for 2 hours. The only test done was an EKG. The price above doesn't include the ambulance. I had to sign a form to make sure the hospital isn't liable. I left and declined any other test because I was afraid of what they would cost. NOBODY should ever have to decide between food and medicine in what should be the richest country in the world.

All I want to hear is an answer to this problem. Those screaming should show us the solution not their pathetic cry against Obama. Most of them, their only issue is the first black president of the country. That's becoming more obvious every day.

Drowning Glover,

The copy of the House Health Care bill is pasted above. Why don't you open it up and read it for yourself? You'll see that life-sustaining treatments and advice are mentioned in it on page 427-429. I'll paste it here again for your enjoyment:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/17352956/House-Health-Reform-Bill

You might want to look in the mirror next time when you call someone a moron.

The first question is "loaded", how can you mention "a new era in politics" in the same sentence as a 6-month old administration. It is exactly this type of "baiting" and lopsided information those of us who simply want healthcare reform(change) are battlling now. Who ever is causing the town hall hysteria, might want to keep something in mind. The challenges along the road to the whitehouse have prepared the POTUS for far more heat than this. Also, for you haters of intellect and education, if you think a man who graduated the top of his class at harvard won't be difficult to "out manuver" I have some land out back for .10 an acre!

Mainstream America. That would be, where...? Wasilla, AK? Spare me.

Occam--there is NO one proposal..there are 4 drafts....Congress has not done their job in writing the legislation---Therefore Obama has to defend the principles he believes are what the people want!

The rest are just lies and fear driven chatter! Make no mistake the rabid words of the illiterate mouthpeices like limpbow, beck, palin and boneher will end up drawn and quartered if this errupts into violence other than verbal little informed screamers! They have become victims of the wingnuts...who play to fear tactics every time...Lets not forget 1993-94! and 'Just kill it'---or the other stupidity 'birthers' and the big 'bugaboo' Nazi ...Wish we could allay the fears that are pushed on the elderly who are concerned about end of life issues and do not realize that Medicare is a govrn't program!

I have read an overview of the healthcare bill, and the bill is about government control, total control. The APOLLO COMMITTEE, which is a ACORN committee, and ACORN are Saul Ilinski people. If you really look at it, the healthcare bill is about the dismantlement of the constiution, and the bill of rights. Call me a troll, I do not care, but this bill is marxist. But do not listen to me, listen to the marxist lies of Obama, and you will live in a socialist paradise.

I am a Republican and I voted the media is not reporting the whole truth.

I cannot believe there are people here who voted "Republicans" are to blame for this, when there are millions of Democrats who do not agree with alot of what the Obama Administration has done so far and are tryig to do.

A man was caught on camera at a town hall meeting snatching a picture of Rosa Parks from a black woman and then tearing that picture up. These people are truly disgusting.

When people talk about the "left wing" media, my wife always goes ballistic. She is a PhD social scientist and keeps pointing me to studies of foreign and international journalistic "leanings." The consensus is:

1) Most journalists worldwide are slightly left if center in their personal political viewpoints. Journalism attracts that sort of person, just as international banking attracts a right of center personality. Nothing odd or conspiratorial there.

2) Compared to other countries, except for countries that legally rescrict (censor) the press (such as Venezuela) the United States has a very conservative press. In fact, a little bit further to the right than the population as a whole.

3) The apparent reasons for 1) and 2) appear to be that media owners tend to be right of center, journalists tend to bend over backwards to be impartial and tend to end up with an unintentional, but measurable right-of-center bias, and advertisers are perceived to be right of center and everyone tries to make advertisers happy.

Lots of social scientists watched the 2008 presidential election very carefully. McCaid got both more air time, column inches and mentions than Obama and received less negative coverage than Obama. Some of this can be explained by the bitter primary contest with Hillary Clinton, but the coverage rates changed little after she dropped out.

Facts trump propaganda.

To underscore what others here have said....there is NO ONE BILL at this time. There are a few main ones and several that aren't going anywhere. And NONE of those bills talk about "socialized medicine" or anything like it. That is the term the opponents of change are throwing around to scare people. Universal care and socialized medicine are NOT NECESSARILY THE SAME THING. All universal care means is that everyone has coverage. Some may have private insurance, some public (like Medicare, Medicaid...). That is what each of those bills is proposing.

I understand that people may have legitimate reasons to oppose reform. But what angers me is when they resort to lies and terms like "socialized medicine" and "death panel" that bear no resemblance to anything actually being proposed.

Are you saying the American populace is ignorant of the facts? How embarrassing for our country -- if it were true. But, it's not. If this was really our majority -- people who believe anything that Fox News tells them -- then Obama would not be president. These are just the people who scream the loudest, and look the dumbest! It's still embarrassing. But, it's also very, very scary. These people have guns and they are hoping for a civil war.

Kristina,

Am I wrong, or is it a public "option"? Can't you keep your current insurance so that you don't have to have government insurance?

Sigh.

Page 22 follows by 16. The idea is 'everybody gets insurance.' If an employer wants to do the insurance privately, someone's going to have to check that they aren't lying.

Page 29 isn't about Admission, but about cost-sharing. Where do you see rationing?

• Page 30: A government committee will decide what treatments and benefits you get (and, unlike an insurer, there will be no appeals process)
• Page 42: The "Health Choices Commissioner" will decide health benefits for you. You will have no choice. None.

What's first odd here is that you say a committee decides what benefits you get. And 12 pages later, a single Commissioner decides what benefits you get?

Page 30 says. "Sec. 123. Health Benefits Advisory Committee There is established a private-public advisory committee which shall be a panel of medical and other experts to be known as the Health Benefits Advisory Committee to recommend covered benefits and essential, enhanced, and premium plans." Now, I must ask - do you think private insurance companies don't have these? Do you realize that it says what this committee does on page 32? "The Health Benefits Advisory Committee shall recommend to the Secretary of Health and Human Services benefit standards, and periodic updates to such standards."

Page 42 says. "The establishment of qualified health benefits plan standards" As in, the levels of benefits for plans, and what qualifies to fit those standards. Have you taken health insurance before? My employers ended up giving me choices - several plans, costing different amounts and yielding different endings in certain situations. Those would be 'plans.' The details would be the standards for those 'plans.' This is what a Commissioner would do.

• Page 50: All non-US citizens, illegal or not, will be provided with free healthcare services.

Hmm, it seems to say there can't be discrimination with regards to providing it. I thought that was the point. And can't most anybody already head to a hospital if they need it and get help? With or without insurance?

• Page 58: Every person will be issued a National ID Healthcard.

"Every person" using the government plan. And a card... just like you have if you have private insurance.

• Page 59: The federal government will have direct, real-time access to all individual bank accounts for electronic funds transfer.

Nowhere does it say individual bank accounts. It says, under the ADMINISTRATIVE section, that they want to make sure to enable electronic funds transfers for administrative use. I mean, really, if you truly thought this, wouldn't this be shouted at the rooftops as government intervention into the private world?

• Page 65: Taxpayers will subsidize all retiree health plans

I deleted the words 'union' and 'community organizer' from that, because they're meaningless and not included.

So, it is either the taxpayers help with their existing plans, or they lose their existing plans and join the overall Governmental plans? Seems like this is the cheaper option.

• Page 72: All private healthcare plans must conform to government rules to participate in a Healthcare Exchange.

Seems pretty expectable to me.

• Page 84: All private healthcare plans must participate in the Healthcare Exchange (i.e., total government control of private plans)

Now, 84 doesn't say anything of the sort.

And you'd think that'd be backwards - they'd takeover and then conform them, not first state that they must conform to join, and then make them join.

• Page 91: Government mandates linguistic infrastructure for services; translation: illegal aliens

Translation: melting pot. St. Louis was made a place for Bosnian refugees to live back in the 90s, and we saw a lot of them come in, with the teenagers learning English a lot faster. If we do stuff like that (and we do) you'd think they'd want to make sure people we pull in and welcome would be supported, wouldn't you?

• Page 95: The Government will pay ACORN and Americorps to sign up individuals for Government-run Health Care plan.

It says nothing about 'signing up individuals.' It says educating individuals and employers.

• Page 102: Those eligible for Medicaid will be automatically enrolled: you have no choice in the matter.

If you have government health care, and you've gone to the age for Medicaid, why wouldn't you be automatically enrolled? Your choice in the matter would be to get private health insurance, just like your choice before you were Medicaid eligible.

I don't have time to continue like this at the moment, but I must say, because I saw it elsewhere.

• Page 469: Community-based Home Medical Services: more payoffs for ACORN.

People cannot read. The section requires the group be certified to provide medical home services.

The organization provides med

ical home services under the supervision of and in close collaboration with the primary care or principal care physician or nurse practitioner designated by the beneficiary as his or her community-based medical home provider.

ACORN doesn't do this. THIS ISN'T ABOUT ACORN.

And what are you thinking? If screeming , shouting and being undecent is "republican" then I am so proud to be a democrat!

Both parties spend so much time trying to lie to us to get our votes. MSN spends too much times licking Obama's exhaust pipe, and no time giving any liberal the third degree. The answer I wanted to see is "The liberal left, complaining because their own tactics of protesting and shouting down their opposition, are being used against them. "

Republicans should just succeed from the union and make a new life for themselves 50 miles off shore in a very large raft. There they can scream at each other and devour one another and rid the world of their worthless lies and stench.

How can you have intelligent discussion of any ideas when individuals are shouting and not listening? I have absolutely no problem with people who disagree and want to make their voices heard. But disruption of these town hall meetings isn't getting us anywhere. When someone shouts at me, I lose track of the message because all I can see is the anger.

Mainsteam? Doubtful. Nevertheless welcome to America, where not everybody agrees with you or the "mainstream" or the fringe or whatever.

McCaskill ,who is on the HELP Committee, said that the dems added 40+ amendments to bill but the repbulicans added 140+ amendments then did not vote for the bill to come out of committee...Shut out---BS---obstructionists--the party of NO is flaming out!

Truth to idiots never works they can not hear it but truth to the frightened that will work --Get the word out. Just look at the poll that preceeds this thread! The 'paid for' screamers have not found it yet!

A.Doria

You'll see that life-sustaining treatments and advice are mentioned in it on page 427-429. I'll paste it here again for your enjoyment:

again no! It's about setting up living wills! It has nothign to do with end of life care. They are NOT setting up death panels and telling people how they will die.

This is common sense type stuff, when will you people get this through your thick skulls.

I stick by my original post, your rundown is full of @!$%# and are YOUR interpretations of the bill, not what's actually in it.

In reply to 1.43: Here are the facts. Anyone can verify them by reading the bill at http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h3200/text

Actual itemized contents of the Health Care Reform Bill:

"Page 22: Mandates audits of all employers that self-insure!"

TRUTH: This is not an "audit," it's a study. Moreover, the bill states (pp. 22-23) that the report will "include any recommendations the Commissioner deems appropriate to ensure that the law does not provide incentives for small and mid-size employers to self-insure or create adverse selection in the risk pools of large group insurers and self-insured employers." This is almost directly the opposite of the email's claim.

"Page 29: Admission: your health care will be rationed!"

TRUTH: Page 29 continues to define the "essential benefits package" and discusses limits on what Americans will have to spend on health care under this minimum standard. In no way does this section stipulate the rationing of care.

"Page 30: A government committee will decide what treatments and benefits you get (and, unlike an insurer, there will be no appeals process)"

TRUTH: Page 30 begins to describe the Health Benefits Advisory Committee which establishes certain minimum standards for health insurance plans. In no way does this committee deny treatments and benefits to Americans with health insurance.

"Page 42: The 'Health Choices Commissioner' will decide health benefits for you. You will have no choice. None."

TRUTH: Page 42 begins to describe the Health Choices Commissioner's duties. The idea that this person will decide what benefits Americans receive is patently false, given that most Americans will keep their current plans under reform, and Americans within the exchange will have the choice of purchasing many different kinds of health plans. Rather, the Commissioner will establish minimum standards to protect Americans.

"Page 50: All non-US citizens, illegal or not, will be provided with free healthcare services."

TRUTH: Pages 50-51 contain a provision stating that discrimination will not be allowed in the provision of health care services. Nowhere does the bill state that non-US citizens will be provided free health care services. The bill prohibits federal dollars from being used for undocumented immigrants.

"Page 58: Every person will be issued a National ID Healthcard."

TRUTH: Page 58, in the context of a discussion of administrative standards, mentions that "determination of an individual's financial responsibility at the point of service and, to the extent possible, prior to service, including whether the individual is eligible for a specific service with a specific physician at a specific facility...may include utilization of a machine-readable health plan beneficiary identification card." In no way does the bill state that such a card would be national, or that it would be issued to every person, or that it would, in fact, be used at all.

"Page 59: The federal government will have direct, real-time access to all individual bank accounts for electronic funds transfer."

TRUTH: Page 59 continues the discussion of administrative standards, and authorizes electronic transfers of money within the government. In no way does this provision grant the government access to individual bank accounts.

"Page 65: Taxpayers will subsidize all union retiree and community organizer health plans (read: SEIU, UAW and ACORN)"

TRUTH: Here's what page 65 says: "Not later than 90 days after the date of the enactment of this Act, the Secretary of Health and Human Services shall establish a temporary reinsurance program to provide reimbursement to assist participating employment-based plans with the cost of providing health benefits to retirees and to eligible spouses, surviving spouses and dependents of such retirees." No mention is made of unions or community organizations.

"Page 72: All private healthcare plans must conform to government rules to participate in a Healthcare Exchange."

TRUTH: That's true! Plans have to have a minimum standard of benefits, bat can offer other plans as well. But that's fair, isn't it? Private insurers can continue to operate outside the exchange if they wish - should the government establish no standards for the exchange? In that case, how could reform end insurance industry abuses and help to control costs?

"Page 84: All private healthcare plans must participate in the Healthcare Exchange (i.e., total government control of private plans)"

TRUTH: This section says is that if private health care plans want to operate in the Exchange, they must provide a basic benefit package.

"Page 91: Government mandates linguistic infrastructure for services; translation: illegal aliens"

TRUTH: Some American citizens are more comfortable speaking a language other than English, especially in a sensitive situation like a consultation with their doctor. This provision in no way opens the door for coverage of undocumented workers.

"Page 95: The Government will pay ACORN and Americorps to sign up individuals for Government-run Health Care plan."

TRUTH: Page 95 makes no mention of ACORN and Americorps; all it says is that the Commissioner can conduct outreach to vulnerable populations, making them aware of their options.

"Page 102: Those eligible for Medicaid will be automatically enrolled: you have no choice in the matter."

TRUTH: People who are eligible for Medicaid will not have to face the burdens of paperwork and other bureaucratic struggles. Far from depriving people of choice, this measure will ensure coverage.

"Page 124: No company can sue the government for price-fixing. No 'judicial review' is permitted against the government monopoly. Put simply, private insurers will be crushed."

TRUTH: This section describes rate-setting under the public health insurance plan option, which will compete with private insurers, who can set their own rates. Because of inherent advantages like their established administrative and provider frameworks, private insurance companies will not be "crushed" by government competition.

"Page 127: The AMA sold doctors out: the government will set wages."

TRUTH: The government will negotiate rates with providers under the public health insurance plan option. However, private insurers will continue to pay their own rates.

"Page 145: An employer MUST auto-enroll employees into the government-run public plan. No alternatives."

TRUTH: This is simply not true. Employers with more than 20 employees aren't even eligible to participate in the exchange, let alone the public plan, until several years after the exchange launches in 2013. Moreover, no employer will be forced to participate in the public plan.

"Page 146: Employers MUST pay healthcare bills for part-time employees AND their families."

TRUTH: Employers are required to pay some benefits for part-time employees on a basis proportional to what they pay for full-time employees. No language on this page or the next stipulates coverage for the families of part-time employees.

"Page 149: Any employer with a payroll of $400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays an 8% tax on payroll"

TRUTH: The payroll penalty applies to employers with payroll over $500,000 who do not provide insurance to their employees. The percentage for employers with payroll from $500,000 - $750,000 is 6%. Employers do not have to offer the public option to avoid this penalty, they can offer private insurance if they wish.

"Page 150: Any employer with a payroll of $250K-400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays a 2 to 6% tax on payroll"

TRUTH: This is false, see above.

"Page 167: Any individual who doesn't' have acceptable healthcare (according to the government) will be taxed 2.5% of income."

TRUTH: Pages 167-173 detail what "acceptable health care" means (basically, insurance coverage) and also allow for many different kinds of exceptions to this rule.

"Page 170: Any NON-RESIDENT alien is exempt from individual taxes (Americans will pay for them)."

TRUTH: Non-resident aliens do not have to pay the penalty for not having health insurance, nor will the receive federal assistance, because they are not required to purchase health insurance. They are not exempted from individual taxes generally.

"Page 195: Officers and employees of Government Healthcare Bureaucracy will have access to ALL American financial and personal records."

TRUTH: This is a gross overstatement. For the purposes of determining affordability credits for Americans who need financial assistance in purchasing health insurance, employees of the Health Choices Administration will have access to tax information that the federal government already keeps. As is clearly stated on page 196, "Return information... may be used by officers and employees of the Health Choices Administration or such State-based health insurance exchange, as the case may be, only for the purposes of, and to the extent necessary in, establishing and verifying the appropriate amount of any affordability credit described in subtitle C of title II of the America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 and providing for the repayment of any such credit which was in excess of such appropriate amount.''

"Page 203: "The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax." Yes, it really says that."

TRUTH: This quote is taken out of context, and is in fact referring to a calculation used in the bill. Full context of quote: "'(4) NOT TREATED AS TAX IMPOSED BY THIS CHAPTER FOR CERTAIN PURPOSES.-The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax imposed by this chapter for purposes of determining the amount of any credit under this chapter or for purposes of section 55.''

"Page 239: Bill will reduce physician services for Medicaid. Seniors and the poor most affected."

TRUTH: This section has nothing whatsoever to do with reducing services. It makes much needed changes to the way in which physician reimbursement is recalculated every year. The bill will, in fact, create much more opportunity for seniors and the poor to receive necessary care.

"Page 241: Doctors: no matter what specialty you have, you'll all be paid the same (thanks, AMA!)"

TRUTH: Page 241 does not say this. Nowhere does it say this. It does say that physicians will be grouped into certain categories regardless of specialty. These categories merely determine if the physician is engaged in primarily therapeutic or preventative care.

"Page 253: Government sets value of doctors' time, their professional judgment, etc."

TRUTH: There is no good response to this assertion as it appears to have been made up completely. The section deals with 'misvalued codes' meaning that the government is potentially not paying an acceptable rate for a specific service. This will allow the government to, for example, pay more for services that require more payment, such as high-overhead procedures. The author of these criticisms separately attacks the bill for paying the same rate to all doctors, then attacks again for paying different rates.

"Page 265: Government mandates and controls productivity for private healthcare industries."

TRUTH: This section amends the Social Security Act to include productivity measures. There is no mandate or control of anything. This merely updates the way in which doctors and hospitals are paid through Medicare.

"Page 268: Government regulates rental and purchase of power-driven wheelchairs."

TRUTH: This is simply not true. This slightly amends existing guidelines for payments for medical equipment, in this case power-driven wheelchairs. This section introduces no 'regulations' that are not in the Social Security Act.

"Page 272: Cancer patients: welcome to the wonderful world of rationing!"

TRUTH: Overusage of the hot-button word "rationing" is a way to deflect attention away from the actual language of the bill and incite unjustified fear. This section only compares costs incurred by cancer hospitals to costs incurred by similar hospitals, and adjusts payments to reduce the possibility of fraud and abuse.

"Page 280: Hospitals will be penalized for what the government deems preventable re-admissions."

TRUTH: This is almost correct. The section is one of the first efforts at targeting excessive readmissions. Excessive readmissions are physically and emotionally damaging to patients, while simultaneously putting them, and the health care system, in far more financial risk than is necessary. The American Hospital Association recommended reduced payments for avoidable readmission in testimony to Congress.

"Page 298: Doctors: if you treat a patient during an initial admission that results in a readmission, you will be penalized by the government."

TRUTH: This is patently false. The section is about possible methods that the Secretary of Health and Human services might consider in order to address the growing problem of patient readmission. This section does not, in any way, create a penalty, nor does it even mandate policy. It merely provides examples of recourses that might be considered.

"Page 317: Doctors: you are now prohibited from owning and investing in healthcare companies!"

TRUTH: This provision only limits Doctor's investments in health care facilities that they refer patients to The effort to limit self-referral has been ongoing for many years as an effort to reduce fraud and abuse. This is, essentially, the medical community equivalent of insider trading. Limiting this incentive works to put the patient's health above all other considerations. Doctors remain free to engage in investment opportunities in areas that don't create a significant conflict of interest.

"Page 318: Prohibition on hospital expansion. Hospitals cannot expand without government approval."

TRUTH: This section regulates physicians' investment in hospitals to make sure that physicians are not unfairly benefiting from their power to refer patients to hospitals they have a stake in. The section does not prohibit hospital expansion.

"Page 321: Hospital expansion hinges on 'community' input: in other words, yet another payoff for ACORN."

TRUTH: In the ongoing effort to demonize community-based groups such as ACORN, every instance of the word "community" has become associated with that group's efforts. In reality, this provision allows for anyone to provide input. This includes homeowners, religious leaders, neighborhood groups, and others. There are no payoffs. There is no money exchanged in any way.

"Page 335: Government mandates establishment of outcome-based measures: i.e., rationing."

TRUTH: This provision is included in order to allow the government to base payments on practices that work. Nowhere does it say health care will be rationed. The attempt to isolate what works and what does not work in Medicare Advantage plans only benefits the health care system in general.

"Page 341: Government has authority to disqualify Medicare Advantage Plans, HMOs, etc."

TRUTH: The government can disqualify some Medicare Advantage Plans from receiving some additional payments, but only if those plans are not meeting necessary requirements.

"Page 354: Government will restrict enrollment of SPECIAL NEEDS individuals."

TRUTH: This section only deals with how to handle special needs individuals who need to enroll outside of the open enrollment period. Almost every type of plan operates with open enrollment periods. This section does not create more restrictions.

"Page 379: More bureaucracy: Telehealth Advisory Committee (healthcare by phone)."

TRUTH: This section merely expands existing Telehealth programs, which supplement but do not replace other health coverage, and provide a vital resource to Americans in rural and remote areas.

"Page 425-430: More bureaucracy: Advance Care Planning Consult: Senior Citizens, assisted suicide, euthanasia?; Government will instruct and consult regarding living wills, durable powers of attorney, etc. Mandatory. Appears to lock in estate taxes ahead of time; Government provides approved list of end-of-life resources, guiding you in death; Government mandates program that orders end-of-life treatment; government dictates how your life ends; Advance Care Planning Consult will be used to dictate treatment as patient's health deteriorates. This can include an ORDER for end-of-life plans. An ORDER from the GOVERNMENT; Government will decide what level of treatments you may have at end-of-life."

TRUTH: All of these hysterical claims have been debunked elsewhere. HR3200 provides for the reimbursement of a voluntary session of end-of-life counseling with your physician once every five years. This in no way means the government will make decisions for patients or encourage doctor-assisted suicide. Counseling simply makes patients and their families aware of their options.

"Page 469: Community-based Home Medical Services: more payoffs for ACORN."

TRUTH: ACORN is not a Community-Based Medical Home.

"Page 472: Payments to Community-based organizations: more payoffs for ACORN."

TRUTH: This is clearly still referring to community health groups, not ACORN.

"Page 489: Government will cover marriage and family therapy. Government intervenes in your marriage."

TRUTH: Covering marriage and family therapy, as many private insurance plans do, does not mean that the government "intervenes in your marriage." The types of individuals who are recognized as therapists are clearly defined on page 491; in brief, professionals only, not bureaucrats.

"Page 494: Government will cover mental health services: defining, creating and rationing those services."

TRUTH: This section expands government coverage for mental health services under various government programs, and ensures that all mental health services will be offered by qualified professionals.

Ken, your proving just how far out of touch you are. Everyone knows how much out of touch the GOP is, that's why they lost the elections so badly.

Most of the developed nations of the world have national health care, and EVERY patient gets treated. LISTEN to the news, it has explainations of all of the points you people are debating. The anti-health care people are NOT learning the truth, they are so set in their untrue beliefs they will never see the truth. They should think for theirselves and stop listening to idiots like Palin,Limbaugh and especially the insurance company drones that are being PLANTED at the town hall meetings.

To Melvina:

The TINY corner of mainstream America I live in is Central Texas, and I just moved from Dallas (not exactly a tiny hamlet). EVERYONE I know, with the exception of one (my father, who suffers from Bush derrangement syndrome, and has had screaming fights about politics since I was a child) is against this plan (and I'm talking to everyone I meet about it). In our small town of less than 25,000, we had 108 doctors and medical professionals sign onto an ad opposing this bill. It is bad for everyone. We do need reform, but not this.

Only the American Congress could tell us with a stright face that creating a massive government bureaucracy would save billions of dollars. Only a fool would believe to their cost projections (which don't even claim to save money, but lose it). Medicare costs NINE TIMES what they projected it would cost now. Reform Medicare and Medicaid, cut the waste, fraud and abuse. Find efficiences, ADDRESS TORTE REFORM, allow true competition for insurance across state lines, enable portablity, and help only those who need help. Bill Gates doesn't need health insurance and shouldn't be forced to buy it.

We cannot afford to keep spending when we have bankrupted the country. There are not enough "rich people" to pay for this monstrosity. Printing and borrowing trillions of dollars is creating a disaster in waiting. We are devaluing our currency and will be creating super-inflation.

Americans are finally waking up and paying attention, and instead of listening, our politicians are calling us evil-mongers, Nazis, brown shirts, unrepresentative, and astro-turf. We are only shouting because our leaders are have completely disrespected us and refusing to listen, even going so far as to be talking on a cell phone during a health caare forum while a constituent was asking a question.

To A.Doria, who wrote "I guess most of you are ok with you tax dollars going to free health care for Illegal immigrants." Hello? None of the proposals allow illegal immigrants to receive free health care.

If any party is "out of touch" it is the Republican Party. For a whole 6 months, they have been the Party of No. At the Town Halls, they do not want to debate. Everything sensible which the President has said does not seem to register; namely - If you are happy with your present insurance company, keep it. No one will pull the plug on Grandma. The end-of-life suggestion is the brain-child of Republicans yet still they are using it as if it is a threat-to-life; and so many unfortunate nonsense.

I can honestly say that you hit every single democratic talking point in that last response. Rahm would be very proud of you for following his email instructions so precisely.

Fact: The current bill in the house has panels in its implementation that are designed to determine a 'quality value' on each procedure. This means that if an 76 man needs a hip replacement, the panel will have determined that he is in fact too old to receive it because statistically he isn't going to live long enough to benefit greatly from it. He will be denied. That is what this panel is designed to do. Denial of care IS exactly what these panels are designed to do.

Just because the President tells you what he wants in his plan... doesn't mean that is what is in the BILL. Congress is writing this.... not the President. Maybe the President should sit down and read the thing before he opens his mouth and sets his lemmings loose to regurgitate his every word.

watch

you wrote the right wing nutter talking points minus any and all facts -- good for you dope head limbaugh will be proud of you

Just because you hear other wing nutters repeating the same lies and you decide to repeat the same lies will not change the facts that your blather is complete lies

Perhaps you should actually go read the bill for yourself and stop relying on the right wing nutters to tell you what is in the bill -- on this one they have not got it right once

We won the last election. What fantasy are you living in>

condew

Nice factual post -- unfortunately unless the birther types hear this from their messiah limbaugh they will just ignore all these facts and any other facts that may get in the way of their ignorant lies--

Like we needed any more proof of the idiocy of the screamers - "it is common knowledge" - what a load of crap. If that is true how come your right wing party was destroyed in the last elections?

I think in this statement we are forgetting the fact that we need 2 things out of this and it is neither left or right...

1. multiple options for a solution to our healthcare problems. Problem is, nobody in this country should go bankrupt due to an unforseen health problem

2. Civil, informed discourse on the subject. People need to read and understand what they are talking about (death panels are one example) and discuss the options/objections in a constructive manner.

Blaming right or left for the problem is not productive or germaine to the issue.

jessica

Well the real fact is the majority of America is just left of center making this a slightly progressive country by majority

It is however a common tactic of the right wing to propagate the lie that our country leans right --

If our country actually leaned right as the right wing claims

we would still have slavery

women would not have rights

there would be no interracial marriage

there would be no social security

there would be no medicare or medicaid

there would be no unemployment insurance

there would be walls around all of our borders

there would be no welfare or any assistance for any needy families

and many more nightmarish realities

Shame on the right wing sheeple for not getting any facts and blindly following their talking heads limbaugh, oriley, hannity and the gang

I was going to say something like that, American Patriot, but then I remembered they already have a defense for that: "ACORN."

Jessica, you forgot Glenn Beck, the worst of the bunch. When called out on why he doesn't reference facts to back up his rhetoric (he was schooled on The View, no less!) he said he doesn't have to use facts because he's a commentator, not a journalist.

Just yesterday he parroted Palin's "Death panel" tinfoilhattery--calling her by name, a day after even she refuted her own statement (because SHE LIED--there IS NO SUCH PANEL). And people are still spreading the false, inflammatory rumour!

It's pretty common knowledge that most of America leans to the right.

How can you say that? Where did this "pretty common knowledge" come from?

Where is this common knowledge? I've never heard of it and the people who voted for Obama, obviously don't adhere to it. Being obstructionists has little to do with our Constitution. The people who keep referring to our losing the Constitution, cannot recite one single line of the Constitution. Amazing, the ignorance in this country.

That is funny - I know several "right-leaning" Republicans who actually voted for Obama because they despised Sarah Palin.

It may seem to you, Jessica, that the country is "right-leaning" if you live in an area like I do that is largely "conservative" and "right-leaning" (Western NY). When you see it all around you, it can make you think everyone is like that. Trust me, it ain't so.

The results of the last election should have opened your eyes.

Would still have slavery?? Lincoln was a republican.

Blind? I am a soldier. Just curious, do you still think we went to Iraq to"find weapons of mass destruction?"

Blind leading the blind I will give you and did anyone read the defense bills over the last 8 years? I never heard any of it. I guess it is only when it suits us.

This is the best country in the world and I love it and have complete confidence in our leadership, I did then (even with human mistakes made), and now. God bless America, Hoooah!

Why can't I get the image of brown shirts in Germany breaking up political meetings of their opponents in the 1920's out of my mind?

Rev: Glen Beck poisoning Nancy Pelosi? Fixed News should fire his you know what. That is just plain scary. It all is. Congress is trying to fix a huge problem. Listen, talk, speak your opinion but stop the lies, threats, screaming, etc.

h-1271562 -- Thanks for reminding us all...that Lincoln was a Republican...still have slavery...it was "Southeren Democrats" who were big on Slavery...and Jim Crow laws.

The only reason Conservatives raise more money, Andrew, is because they're in the pockets of the big lobbies who want to run this country for their own profit.

Democrats have to ask for money from actual human beings, not soulless corporations.

In 2009, Lincoln would be either a Democrat or an Independent. Get it straight people, read some history. The Republican party of 1860 is NOTHING like the Republican party of 2009. Same goes for the Dems.

Its just a silly comparison.

It is really not republican vs democrat it is Conservative vs Liberal...or better said the Industrial complex vs the populist concerns. When there was such a thing as fiscal responsibility in America ... the conservative power elite were actually quite philanthropic for our infrastructure. But those days are long gone. Now you are luck if you can get a company to support a freeway sign. Our financial institutions appear to be no longer symbiotic but now appear much more parasitic. And that is why Liberals have had to come in and protect this country. It is not their nature, but they are what is left to take us back from the brink created by our own greed.

Who do you think is running the country now!?

The teleprompters...I mean President ????

Why do you people want to change the subject? do any of you know what this Congress is trying to shove down your throats or up you? The demostrations are about this Health care bills that soon may become law. Who will suffer? who will pay? OB is not giving you MANNA FROM HEAVEN. according to this stuff you may not qualify for all these programs and if you do you may have to wait for treatment (ask your friends in Canada). and you may not qualify for surgery when the time comes. This is about a Health Care program that no one (especially your President) has even bothered to read much less understands. Some of your neighbors both Democrats and Republicans are trying to show their lack of trust to their Congress Men and Women none of them are getting physical. Your MEDIA on the other hand are trying to make this about Politics.

One liner today for all "arguing" between right and left...

Get your a**es in the middle and in gear and CONTRIBUTE for solution - or shut up.

Ok, - no one can eat just one...

Quit whining about who's a right wing jacka** and who's a left wing jacka**... realize anyone who's not helping is hindering. PUT your $.02 in and hope (and VOTE) for the best, otherwise, quit spouting others' ideas. Do your OWN research - and if you don't know how, ASK for help - and quit blaming the government for YOUR shortcomings by NOT practicing your civic duty of keeping them in line or replacing them.

GeeZUSS, people... we all need to grow up, calm the hell down and get to work fixing these things, not just tearing each other apart.

Kristin, those same southern democrats you mention later switched to the republican party after the civil rights bill was passed.. Todays GOP is positively rife with these old dixiecrats who still support jim crow laws.

Hey BJs65-634377, don't slander people from Western NY -- I grew up in Rochester, and it was a rather liberal town. And what makes you think she is even from NY anyway? Could be any state of the union.

Tyras-

In the 1850s, under the stress of the Fugitive Slave Law and the Kansas-Nebraska Act, anti-slavery Democrats left the party. Joining with former members of existing or dwindling parties, the Republican Party emerged.

Andrew, If you think shouting is getting you heard, then you are mistaken. And a NC Rep Brad Miller declined to have a town hall type meeting because it was unproductive and invited each person who had a concern with the health care proposal to sit down with him, one on one, to discuss the matter in a civilized manner. NOT ONE PERSON WOULD! So you so called screamers are really only in it for the media attention then huh? You don't really want to have your Representative sit down with you and discuss this one on one. Quite frankly you all are annoying and I am turning the channel on you every time.

BJ: I am a western NY resident as well, please don't speak for all of us.. Our county of ONTARIO recently voted in a Democrat to represent us in Congress. I as an independent am pretty much down the middle, however Insurance reform is way overdue.

All you have to see is the painting of a swastika on Congressman David Scott's sign to realize the Nazis are coming out in support of the Republican view. Think back to the '30s when the Nazis were doing this same thing all across Germany.

Duh Laura, I know Rochester itself is a very liberal town, but do you know the suburbs and rural areas around it are as Republican as you can get? I never said Jessica was from Western NY, but if she lived in a place like this - she might just think "everyone is the same as she". How about getting your reading comprehension back in shape, eh?

I oughta know - I grew up in 315er land - and these guys are as 'red' as can be. Just because a Democrat was voted in in one county, doesn't mean that the majority of those voters in that county are Democrat. The stats show the #s of Republicans outnumber those of the Democrats. It's Downstate that turns NYS into a blue state.

Despite all the partisan rancor this is a philosophical argument. How much power do we want the government to have and where does their power stop and our rights begin. The supporters rightfully say we have a lot of government involvement and this is the next step. The detractors rightfully say a lot of the government programs are expensive inefficient and unsustainable. Both sides say that their party is good and the other is evil, bothare wrong. Both party's are corrupt, power hungry and liars and would gladly trample our liberty for their gain all the while telling us they are doing us a favor.

Tyras...I am not a Rep or a Dem...I just can't stand it when someone tries to state that only Republicans are bad...both parties are corrupt...to say differently...to try and pin all the wrongs of our nation on one party...that is wrong.

Both parties have histories of making mistakes....and both have men they can be proud of. My Grandfather was a Roosevelt Democrat...and I can tell you today he would be appalled with the Democratic party...much like my husband is appalled with his Republican party. Don't assume that all people who see themselves as Republican or Democrat agree with those in congress who call themselves such. I think the system is dysfunctional in many ways...and not just one party is to blame.

We the people...who like to use forums like this to post asinine statements which place blame on just one group...we are as much to blame for giving those idiots power by allowing them to use our bias and prejudice to allow them to get into a place of power....we the people are the ones that listen to the news we want to hear....and believe the story without really digging into the details....we the people are the ones who need to really reevaluate how we elect our Government leaders. We the people...who seem to have real troubles compromising with those we disagree...because life people isn't always fair...and sometimes you can't have everything you want.

Both parties whine...whining is not a symptom of just the Republican party. Whining is what people who are unhappy do...get over it. Compromise is the answer...but few truly want to do that...they would rather scream and holler that what they want isn't happening and then sit back and cast blame and do nothing to change their predicament.

And when you start stating historical facts...get it right...don't use history to state why one party is wrong and why yours is right. Lincoln was a Republican....he did not set out to end slavery...the war changed him and he realized slavery needed to end. But don't try and make all Republicans racist because it suits your purpose. Racist behavior exists in those who call themselves Republican and Democrat...

"Just yesterday he (Glen Beck) parroted Palin's "Death panel" tinfoilhattery--calling her by name, a day after even she refuted her own statement (because SHE LIED--there IS NO SUCH PANEL). And people are still spreading the false, inflammatory rumour!"

Sorry Rev, there are such "death panels". We know them as "health insurance companies". They routinely deny coverage and procedures, resulting in hundreds of deaths every year, not to mention bankrupticies.

"h-1271562 -- Thanks for reminding us all...that Lincoln was a Republican...still have slavery...it was "Southeren Democrats" who were big on Slavery...and Jim Crow laws. "

Who later became Southern Republicans.

rbach, I guess if it makes you feel better to say your position is the majority and there fore your argument is the proper choice so be it. But I would maintain the rights of the minority are just as important as the will of the majority. And taking away ones fundamental right to make choices affecting their well being against their will is a form of tyranny. Like it or not a very high percentage of people by most accounts do not favor the government taking a more aggressive role in their health care, rolling them into a partisan vision of the proper way to address their needs is in my view a violation on my right to control my destiny. I am not affiliated with either party and don't trust either to do the right thing and despite the condescending assessment of dissent from the party's I am well educated and able to read and write.

rbach....while in many ways I admire Roosevelt...and his "New Deal"...he meant for those programs to help get us out of a major depression...not set the tone to take care of people from that point on. What did people do prior to Social Security? Why can't anyone take accountablity for what happens to them when they become to old to work. In many ways...the ways of saving your money went out when the government stepped in and began saving for you. Welfare, Medicaid, Social Security....all ways for government control. I will never understand the mentality that the govt. is supposed to be our financial planners....lol this is upsurd...they don't know how to save themselves...and they fund whatever is the current fad. Government has its place...and the founders never intended for their role to be as large as it has become. btw...I don't count on Social Security for my retirement...and neither should anyone else.

Women's rights...and interracial marriage would have happened with our without the Democrats...quit acting like they and they alone are the voice of reason and compassion.

Compassion and intelligence don't belong to Democrats...or liberals...and every person is entitled to their beliefs....this is why I don't like political parties...if you don't agree with them and their ways...then you are wrong...life is too complex for just one side to always be right.

A. Doria

So far, I have looked up 3 things you mention in your analysis, and all three were worded as well as amended but they DID NOT say the things you are implying! I need to look into this further (not to disprove you, I just want to be at the actual website and I want to make sure that all amends have been added oir cleared out) but I have the sinking feeling that you adjusted the words to prove your point!

Not common knowledge at all that most American's lean to the right. Not a true statement. Maybe they do on your block, but not in general. That can be seen by election results, for one thing.

"So far, I have looked up 3 things you mention in your analysis, and all three were worded as well as amended but they DID NOT say the things you are implying!"

Not sure what you're talking about True American.

All statements above are mine with the exception of the post with the Health Care Reform Bill and the "Little Gems from the Health Care Bill" attached to it

Jleigh...you are two decades behind...The USA does not lean right...only states in the South and a pocket in AZ. Otherwise the map looks blue and we have a good 1/3 of the voters independent!

Additionally, the Information Age has exposed the scare tactics and lies of the Corps and some of the repubs , for what they are-- obstructionist and against the American people to further their goals of 'kill or say 'no' but do not help the people!

Come up to date , please---lies do not make it so---no matter how much the repubs wish it..Another thing--not all repubs are against the will of the people..Collins, Snow, Graham and others are thoughtfull legislators!

Reagan,

Nope --- current social scientists (not political scientists) say that America as a country is just as it always has been --- just right of center. That's why so many new concepts get started elsewhere in the world and then migrate to the U.S. For example, virtually all new cell phone, internet use, and interpersonal communication ideas come from South Korea. They are a left of center country that is more open to new ideas.

Social scientists can show you three pictures, take the number of words in your answer, (paying no attention to the answer itself) and tell you if you are conservative, moderate, or liberal. Neurologists can put you under an MRI and just ask you your name and tell you whether you are conservative, moderate, or liberal. Either of these is extremely accurate. Go check it out on Google Scholar. Interesting stuff.

People's brains are wired differently. Conservatives have strong powers of rationalization, liberals have strong powers of empathy, and moderates have a good helping of each. It gets to be a matter of does one side or the other (or both sides) process information in certain situations?

It even gets more interesting when you factor in education. The more education a person has the more likely they are to be a moderate --- up to a point. Then there is a hockey-stick curve that moves right to liberal with advanced degrees. The social problem that arises is that there are a lot more high-school dropouts than PhD's and so education tends to lose at the voting place.

Kristin674 - Sorry that I didn't get back to you earlier but to answer your question in #1.42.

Yes, I have had care in two universal health care countries, although in one case (Canada) it was a minor injury. In both countries the treatment was timely and correct, and the cost to me in every case was minimal.

I also have witnessed the care of friends in both Canada and France and in 100% of the cases the care was excellent.

I can't say the same about my care in the US however since I have been denied care because of a pre-existing condition that was later proven bogus. I also had the misfortune of a doctor closing his practice and leaving town only to lose my records during the move. Add to that the shuffle from one doctor to another to another for what I believe was the running up of "fee for service" charges and not for her good health that my mother was put through because she had Medicare and a good supplemental. I'll take the care that I got overseas to what I've experienced here any day.

I also work with college student-athletes and can tell you about dozens of horror stories that occurred to insured students who were away from home and had to deal with too often less than adequate care in clinics, emergency rooms, etc. and then had to deal with the dunning letters because their insurer was "less than timely" with payment. "less than timely" = flat out trying to get out of payment of legitimate charges.

Ron...while I have only received care from one socialized system (Canada)...and have friends who have had both good and bad experiences in socialized medicine... I have had both good and bad experiences here in the U.S. as well...mostly fighting with Insurance companies to cover my daughter's heart problem. but the care I received in Canada and the reasons doctor's gave me for not letting me know about my daughters health lead me to believe we would be exchanging one bad for another...I could be wrong. I generally do not want the govt having control over much. Especially pertaining to my personal life. I lost a friend to cancer in Canda due to their waiting periods, but when my husband was laid off...we spent all our savings keeping our daughter covered so no insurance could claim pre-existing condition. I am just not sure which system is better...but know that our current system does need reform.

It's been my experience that most Americans are in the middle of the road...they do not lean right or left...everyone has one issue they more closely associate with one party or the other over...but in general...most of us our moderate. That's not to say that many are not to the left or right....but the majority I feel is in the middle. I know that fiscally...I tend to agree with Conservatives...but socially I lean with Democrats...I rarely agree with any party 100% and would never vote based on the R or D behind their name....which is why voting for judges is always so hard for me...so much more research involved! =)

Oh, that's rich! And you were so independent-minded during the Bush administration? You bought all that hook line and sinker!

"dunning letters because their insurer was "less than timely" with payment. "less than timely" = flat out trying to get out of payment of legitimate charges."

Ron...your above statement I am totally familar with...I have to argue all the time to get them to pay my daughters medical bills...you'd think by now they'd realize I am not giving up.

Debbie...what are you talking about?

You seem to be forgetting that a majority of people elected Obama.

The "sheeple" would be the people that cling to the fallacy that he wasn't elected by a majority.

Rbach- check the history- democrats opposed emancipation- it was Repubs- including ALincoln- who ended slavery- and it was republicans who moved most of these things- and Richard Nixon was the last person to truly move health care forward. None of these outbursts are Repub encouraged- they are nice folks who do not trust gummint- ANY gummint

That was a 52-48 majority- not exactly the "mandate" Pelosi seems to remember

MSNBC can't even be fair on a blame piece...lol. There first two paragraphs were titled, "Town Halls gone wild", and "Rampant Misinformation", then blaming the Republicans for misinformation. Well, it is easy to see the Socialist Propaganda Information Outlet has done their job correctly. It is the Obama administration and his horde of "yes" men morons that are flat out lying. It is also nice to see all the additional LIBERAL PLANTS in here too. People of America, Wake Up, Your freedom is being taken from you right underneath your noses. This is not about health care, this is about control. This is about BIG GOVERNMENT managing every part of your life. With the take over of the Banking industry, the Insurance Industry, now the health industry, and next the energy industry, the government will supply all your needs. All you have to do is be a good little Communist. They will tell you what to drive, how many, miles a week you can drive, what kind of car to drive, what kind of health care you can have, what temperature to keep you thermostat on. They want to tell you when and where you can pray, what everything is going to cost you. This is just the start. If this doesn't scare the hell out of you then you have already bought into Comrade Obama's Socialist plans. These are not scare tactics... the truth is scary. Learn the truth. God help us.

Dennis...I am totally against Government having control...but you think you could tone it down a bit...you are the type that makes people scream "Extremist"

Perhaps...if many of you against Gov control choose to drive economically helpful cars....didn't scream about wanting prayer in school...not to mention the whole evolution vs. creationism debate....if people didn't get themselves into bad loans to begin with...and if people in general tried to be more energy friendly...the Govt...would not have to step in and take over. Our inactive responses to taking care of ourselves...is what has caused Gov...and those in Gov. who feel they need to make those choices for us...have a better place in which to preach from.

I do not favor Big Governement at all...but many of those who feel the same as I...make asinine comments and do not change their behaviors...or open their minds to activities that would make this nation better....having freedom doesn't mean you should abuse it...because when you abuse something your chances of having it taken away increase.

where do u get your stats? most americans are completely clueless! everyone is giving their opinion about the healthcare plan (some rather primitivly) without reading the 1000 page document. how is that possible? READ IT then step forwasrd and speak up! and do it like you would teach your children to....with respect and civility!

"Sheeple", boy that's quite an educated, talented, and overused mantra of the Right. That certainly makes you appear "unique", in thought. ((smile))

Kristin - Your daughter's situation hits me hard because of a couple of situations with my grandchildren and both my son and daughter have 'good' health insurance coverage and live in cities with good hospitals and lots of good doctors. I have at least some feel for what you’ve been going through.

One of the horror stories: Eleven months ago a player of mine went into a seizure after going down on the tennis court at an away match. The ambulance was called immediately and in time we could hear the siren but it never seemed to arrive. I was holding her head to keep her from smashing it into the court so I'm sure it seemed longer than it actually was but never the less it took longer than it should have. When it finally arrived it rolled very slowly to a stop at the far side of the courts. The brakes had gone bad on the ambulance and they stopped it by downshifting and using the emergency brake. Obviously a second ambulance had to be called. When my player was able to respond she became very agitated about going in the ambulance. Her mother later explained to me that they owed a large bill because their insurance was refusing to pay a prior ambulance charge and she didn't have the money to pay it. Of course the university would cover the charge in this particular case but in the state my player was in she didn't recognize that.

I also later found out that the ambulance service with the bad brakes was fighting to stay afloat because of money owed to it by insured and uninsured alike. What should have been a simple thing was made difficult because of our system of insurance.

There is more to the horror story that I won't go into but the Reader's Digest version is that the cause of the seizure was not determined until this spring. I can't say that it would have happened any quicker in any other country but I believe that it would have been quicker in a system like the Cleveland clinic where the specialists collaborate and not act serially like happened here. Which, by the way, is what I saw also in Paris; a collaboration of doctors.

I'm an oldtime conservative who just happens to have lived enough of the above type situations to believe that we need government involved universal health care whether I believe in big government or not. It has just proven to be the better system in too many instances and too many places to argue with.

Kristin674... You are the type that will role over and fall in line with the rest of the Kool-Aid drinkers. You are already goose steppin'. You have no idea what kind of car I drive, or how far I drive or anything about me. I think the average person has their head in the sand, and think Obama loves them and has their best interest in mind. I am sure you are very average in most areas, but do not pretend to be a conservative... You are a flaming Liberal and you know it.

h-1271562 & kristin674

and everyone else who does not know the difference between the (conservative vs liberal) or (right vs left) and (republicans vs democrats)

As I stated in my post all the would ifs I listed exactly as follows

If our country actually leaned right as the right wing claims

we would still have slavery

women would not have rights

there would be no interracial marriage

there would be no social security

there would be no medicare or medicaid

there would be no unemployment insurance

there would be walls around all of our borders

there would be no welfare or any assistance for any needy families

and many more nightmarish realities

Shame on the right wing sheeple for not getting any facts and blindly following their talking heads limbaugh, oriley, hannity and the gang

Please do not read my posts like you would read a bible, there is no need to interpret anything I wrote and no need to twist the words they will stand alone as written

I did not hint or claim in any shape or way that President Lincoln was a democrat -- heck in that post 2.2 I never mentioned republican or democrat I didn't even mention conservative verses liberal

It was a VERY simple post comparing right vs left

There are righties and lefties in each party

there are righties who have no idea what conservative means and lefties who don't know what liberal means you really need to settle down and start thinking for yourselves and put away the partisan glasses or the government will rape every last one of us while everyone is busy fighting amongst ourselves and not watching them

Doctor Steph, if Bush can win by 1% in his 2nd term and call it a "mandate", then supporters of Obama who got him in by 2% CERTAINLY have a mandate.

And there is rampant misinformation! We have hoards of people attending town hall meetings to talk about a health care bill they haven't even read! All they do is listen to the talking heads on Fox, listen to the lies and mis-construed comments of the experts by lobbyists who are adamant to cause this to fail, and then they spew that garbage in front of everyone...

Wait a minute...on second thought...maybe we should just let you rant. Then you'll have about as much credibility as the birther movement.

Andrew, Andrew, Andrew!! Can't believe that you are claiming the Conservatives raised more money than the Liberals for any Presidential election. PLEASE check your FACTS (your word) with regards to money raised. According to Wiki, "$389,423,102 a staggering number until you realize that he received over 90% of that from individual donors. McCain receives less than 80% from individual donors" And I believe if you check McCain raised $100 million. OUCH, seems you are wrong again. Now all I have to say is open your ears, listen to all the words that are spoken and then think really hard before you expound FACTS. We all have a stake in this, maybe not today, but in the future everyone of us will need Health Insurance, and my guess is so will you. So open your heart and really think this thing through, because it does and will effect you.

This is the most logical answer. If Obama was not a President-in-training and would quit lying to us perhaps we would have a chance to FORCE our representatives to do the right things for this nation.

The United States is not ready for a socialistic way of life! I don't want to be a serf!

Ron...I dislike Insurance companies with a passion...but I have mixed feelings about Government controlled healthcare. I lived in Canada for two years...and gave birth to a child there. The difference between that preganancy...and the ones I gave birth to in the states was very different. I received better care in the states with less waiting time. Another obstacle...was that I wanted to have my tubes tied...but the dr's in Canada would not do it because of my age. I had no trouble once I was back in the states. Add...the doctor in Canada not letting me know my older daughters heart was beating faster than it should and lets just say...I walked away not liking Socialized medicine...but it was free. I never had to pay a thing...and prescriptions were incredibly affordable. We waited longer...had more inconviences...but I never had to argue over a bill...or call over ten times to have it paid...or get collection notices when my insurer kept fighting the bill that they were liable to pay. I would not have had the stress that I did when my husband was laid off and I was terrified of my daughter being denied coverage in the future. The United States needs some Healthcare reform...and the Insurance companies and drug companies need to let go of the greed. Something needs to change...but a Universal Healthcare...well it makes me nervous.

Then Kristin674, you might as well starting printing them by the thousands, because EVERY SINGLE TIME you use your 'insurance' the corporation WILL deny the claim. And it makes sense for them, because they are already paying hefty standard fees to lawyers to take people to court to deny their claims, payments they make whether they use the lawyers or not. So, it makes good sense to blanket deny everything in the hopes you'll either give up or die, becasue anough people DO do that to make it a profitable business practice.

Rbach...leaning right does not mean...that you are for slavery, against a woman's right to vote etc...I know the difference between right and left, conservative vs. liberal, Dem vs. Rep...you labeled the right with your comments. Just because someone is right...or if this nation leaned right (Which I don't believe it does) doesn't mean those things would not have happened.

I am really sick and tired of many assuming that because you lean to one side of the spectrum means you are close minded and uncompassionate. However...I will give you this...we most likely would not have the social programs you listed.....but then there was a great depression...because my grandparents leaned to the right...and they loved Roosevelt so perhaps many loved those programs because they needed them so badly regardless of their leanings.

Dennis...I am drinking no type of Kool Aid...I just don't get into hysterics like some. I certainly don't roll over and follow anyone...btw Dennis I never said I was conservative...just that I don't like big Governement. I am far from conservative...but I am no liberal as well.

Jessica- you must get your facts from Rush & Palin....and they pulled 'em out of the toilet. We are not a "right winged" country. We are a mostly-middle America that neither party seems to fully embrace but still chases the heck after.

I think that a little deep breathing and time spent thinking this through will get us far ahead in the long run. We need a national health care policy. This is not about telling folks what proceedures they can or can't have.

Christ said "Whatsoever you do to the least of my brothers, that you do unto me". DID HE NOT? THINK ABOUT IT

Ummmm so sorry that your among the poor defeated right...and not at all surprised that you speak untruths/misinformation freely. Correct me if I'm wrong but Mr. Obama is the president of the good 'ol United States-which clearly speaks that the MAJORITY (YES MAJORITY) is on his side ;) The only sad thing about this country right now are the hicks that paint a picture of the US - to the rest of the world - that we are as uncultured and backward thinking as (just about half) of us truly are ;) Mwahhhhh and GOD BLESS AMERICA!

The United States is the only country in the world where being educated, informed, and enlightened is a negative. These "mobs" are a mix of republican operatives and poor uniformed and educated (and many somewhat bigoted) white folks. And for some reason, they represent the "real" America? There is a reason we elect officials to represent us (and hopefully not the likes of Sarah Palin). Otherwise, we would just take a poll on every single decision.

uhhh are you stupid??? I'm pretty sure Obama just won the election with both the popular vote and the electoral vote..... how does most of the country lean right you idiot?

We do not need government running our health, they will run it into the ground. The master race might survive without a heart. It will evolve into a revolution, those who want control and those who want freedom. The battles will strike up and the government will create the giant population control militia he's said he wants. Unfortunately most people no longer know history and are brainwashed by media, schools, and politicians. We are destined, I'm afraid, to be totally surpressed and governed and ruled over and robbed and cheated by our government, the ways most governments evolve until we've all had enough and only then will we take our government back by whatever means neccessary. Maybe you've heard or read about it. Pick up a book, learn some lessons we're going through here. I think we're destined to repeat the lessons of history because we don't remember what we learned just a few decades ago. The "changes" Obama speaks are not new, they've been going on since the Romans, the Nazis and Marx. He's got the flare of voice to win the people's admiration. He's told you what he'll do with that admiration if you will just listen and understand what he's been saying. Unfortunately most people just need a good spanking and since it didn't happen while they were growing up, they will now need to be nearly destroyed before they will listen. Bashing Palin and Bush is a joke. Why don't you look at what's happening instead?

Kristin why do you insist on misinterpreting other people's comments? Every one of the issues RBach brings up were liberal issues in their day, issues that were pushed forward by a progressive US, issues that were pushed back and down repeatedly by conservatives. No one is saying any modern day conservative would support a roll back to the days when women had no voting rights or when black Americans were slaves (at least, I hope they wouldn't). But you have to at least acknowledge that if it hadn't been for progressive liberal congresspeople and citizens, those laws would have been implemented at a far later date.

Jessica, like the rest of Republicans you are out of touch. You do realize that the right lost the last election.... wasn't that an indication of how the majority of Americans feel?
The problem is, that you chose to make a ton of noise and allow people to mislead you (lie to you) and accept it as truth.... truly embarassing the rest of us. Like when Bush was president and was ignorant of very common facts (like what language people speak in Brazil), I just want to crawl and run for cover. In Europe, I saw a few Americans with a t-shirt that said, "Bush, is not my president."

I think most Americans should go live in another country to see how messed up their Healthcare is ---if they even have a system in place. We have it so good but don't appreciate any of it!!! The fact we can even openly discuss our disagreement is a gift in itself. We all need to respect each other - if you don't like it come up with another plan -then sit down and let's meet half way.

Kristin - I'll be brief 'cause I've got to run but I think a lot of the problems with delivery of care has to do as much with location and the available doctors in both the US and Canada. It's kind of funny (not necessarily in a humorous way) about your childbirth experiences in the two countries. We have another coach who has (sorta) dual citizenship. While he complained to me about having to wait for a knee operation when he was there, he sent his wife back to Canada to have their fourth child.

We are in an area of Pennsylvania that actually has a shortage of doctors even tho' we're only 50 miles from Pittsburgh (where there is an excellent university hospital system). It seriously affects the quality of care here whereas in West Palm Beach where my daughter lives, the people in her crowd can't believe that there could be a problem. Likewise my son in upstate NY, has no problem with quality of care for his children because of the city he lives in.

I've heard that Canada has a shortage of doctors and I've also heard that the shortage is really in the more rural areas (like here). Actually, I suspect it's a little of both, a shortage and a location problem, in both countries. President Obama addressed that a little in the NH townhall both with doctors and nurses.

Our university added a doctorate in nursing two years ago designed specifically to develop nursing faculty because there are not enough to teach nurses in this country. All the while, France has three times the number of doctors per person as we do and, get this, they have nurses who visit pregnant mothers for months prior to delivery and then follow-up with home visits afterwards. Their infant mortality rate is one of the lowest in the world (less than half of ours). We can never tell but, like my daughter with her son, you may have liked to have had a nurse you were comfortable with who knew you and your daughter when you were dealing with the doctor(s) who were missing the diagnosis with your daughter. Even if the nurse couldn't help you with your battle with the doctor, she may have been a little reassuring about getting resolution. Just speculating but it sure seems like it would be comforting to have a nurse on your side. I don't know how much visiting nurses contribute to their quality of infant health but the numbers sure prove that something is working there.

Well, I tried to be brief.

This is not about republican or democrat, red or blue. I am an independent. This is about being a free American or being strangled by this socialist regime and their communist agenda.

I'm not blind, just intelligent. What exactly is it that you disagree with? could you give specifics?

CommonSense - sounds like you lack sense - or maybe you just forgot your paranoia medication.

The best standards of living right now are in Europe - yes. The best health care. The longest vacations. The longest life expectancies.

I love this country, but I hate when people try to dumb it down. We can be great again, but only if we educate ourselves, and reform our system to be the best it can be. That does not come from digging in and resisting progress. What has made this country a leader in the past is its innovation, it's scientific research, its diverse views, its desire to offer rights to all citizens, its open society and commerce.

What you suggest is that we should all "...stick our heads into the sand, pretend that everything is grand, and hope that everything comes out OK...." (The Ostrich). History teaches us that too much dogma, too much religious fanatacism, too much imperialism and expansionism, too little focus on tolerance all lead to ruin. BUSH was leading us down that path to ruin - eliminating our rights, starting wars for money and domination, spending little at home but hugely on the military (have you really read Roman history?), attacking the middle class (have you read Marx - he surfaced after the rich industrialists abused their power over average folks), etc.

I wouldn't quote history unless you know enough to debate it....

Jessica, apparently more people have voted since your original post....the score is now 45 to 28 in favor of those who the republican/conservatives are just stoking anger for political purposes. Most people understand that the "death panel" is just a lie, like so many others.

If the majority of people lean right then why do the Democrats have the White House, Senate and Congress???? Duh! Typical Repub. nonsense.

Never saw so many "not a republican or democrat" None of them voted????

rbach ??? You say "still have slavery" (stupid remark); but you seem to not know that there are still slave markets in Africa at nearly the same location as in the 1800s. Slaves were made slaves by AFRICANS and sold on a worldwide market. That is still going on. Mothers sell their children to get them transported to some place where they will not starve to death. The colonists and the USA did not enslave anyone. Your list is really quite naive and childish. Who thinks for you?

hilda??? The "majority" quite simply voted AGAINST Bush, not FOR socialism! No Republican could have won with the poor press given Bush! (That's probably why they wasted candidate McCain.) Working taxpayers want to control their own health care, and do not wish to pay for yours! There are enough welfare provisions for you already.

Mike

what utter nonsense your claim that USA did not enslave anyone?? Really did you learn any actual history?

Really --- so tell me mr mike what was the civil war all about? Was not the major issue for the civil war around slavery -- the south wanting to keep them and the north saying no

If you learned any history you would see everything on my list was possible because of left leaning America and nothing to do with the current right wing nutters that are a plague on our country

Either come out with some facts or just stay out of a discussion you know nothing about

Remember the old saying "stay quiet and no one will know you are stupid but start talking and everyone will know"

Shame on you. You're the Beck lovin' @!$%#, I put up with 8 years of Repulican crap. Now move over and shut the hell up

WHERE IGNORANCE IS BLISS

From what I have seen both the Democrats and Republicans are outraged at this plan...Name one country that has taken on this type of a program with success? (Mark L)

"Where there is no vision, the people perish!"

How do you define success, Mark? Mark, there are 44 countries where people on average live longer and about 21 where fewer babies die than in the USA. Nevertheless, we spend about 25% more on health in the USA than Switzerland, the next highest spender. Life expectancy at birth in the USA is 78.6. Here is a list of 7 of the 44 countries who have better figures than ours. They all have universal health coverage. Why can't you see the correlation?

Here's my source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy

LIFE EXPECTANCY AT BIRTH

Japan: 82.07 years

France: 80.87 years

Switzerland: 80.62 years

Australia: 80.62 years

Canada: 80.34 years

Italy: 79.94 years

Spain: 79.78 years

Black men in the USA have a life expectancy of 5 years less than white men in the USA, nevertheless, black men in Bermuda, our neighbor, live longer on average than white men in the USA. So who's drinking the lemonade now?

Carlos, given your non-partisan stands, which have a distinct libertarian tone, I'm surprised you're not a supporter of the health care coop proposal being worked up in the senate finance (max Baucus) committee. the health care coops are to health care what credit unions are to banking. Independent, consumer oriented, non-government entities. For many of us who were betrayed by insurance companies, the option to join a health care coop would be a godsend.

I think you're wrong. Most of us don't lean to the right. And I do think it's the Republicans behind this. They're using fear tactics on the weak and the gullible...and it's working. People that won't check out the facts, but instead believe what they're told. It's ridiculous. Of course we need health reform. There's no question about it. No...they're not going to let grandma die...no we're not going to be a socialist government....that's all just lies to scare the mentally weak and the mentally gullible.

i aint a sheep yer a trouble making morons that big bizness tells you what to do .

u probly need mental health care

I provided links to Snopes, an article on FactCheck and the many lies the right-wing are disseminating, and a point-by-point debunk from PolitiFact.com to a conservative friend. He responded by saying he doesn't trust mainstream media. WTF? My guess is he and many right-wingers don't even know what Snopes or FactCheck are, and therefore don't use these reliable sources to fisk Republican propaganda. This in itself is very telling.

In the Dark Ages the Church/aristocracy did not support education for the peasants because they could manipulate the masses easier by keeping them ignorant. It seems the GOP has the same philosophy.

We as a nation must be diligent and end anti-intellectuallism and embrace Rule of Reason, logic, enlightenment, and most of all rely on fact-based sources of information.

Jessica:

Your comment is correct. Most Americans value their LIBERTY; meaning freedom with responsibility. We should question the government's right to meddle in our lives. Many of the provisions of this Health Care Act do just that. If this Health Care Option was so good why will the President and Congress not submit to it??

john, one of the provisions of the health care act (in the senate finance committee version) is to allow for establishment of health care coops which are to health care what credit unions are to banking. Indepenent, consumer oriented, non-government. My liberty and my freedom would be greatly increased, along with my domestic tranquility if my health care choices included one or more of these coops. the insurance companies have thrown my wife into the street because she had a small surgery 8 years ago and refuse to cover her.

It's strange when it's the liberals screaming and hollering they are being mistreated, oppressed, and their voices are not being heard. If it is conservatives they are mobs and thugs.

Wrong, most of America does not lean to the right. If they did, Pres Obama would never have been elected.

I don't know if the majority of Americans lean to the right, especially not he far right. This evident by who the last election!

RBACH. what a load of crap. who do you think ended slavery???? a republican! dont even get me started on your loads of additional lies. Wow. this is exactly what I mean by ill educated. who do you think started the kkk? let me give you a hint, wasnt the republicans. Infact it was the democratic party, otherwise known back then as the "dixiecrats" read a book would ya?

Wow the slick namecalling and the finger pointing are all the earmarks of a larger societal problem. We are all americans with different viewpoints. Hanging this issue on Obama is convenient but inaccurate. We should try to find out who this greedy entity is that overcharges for health care is it Obama? This is like an old chant, remember the burning of witches. Remember the McCarthy era. Remember Germany in 1936-45. Millions of people paid the price for a few with a lack of vision. We can think beyond the simple gang mentality and think about the real debate. Does Healthcare need fixing....Yes it does. Is it time to fix it? Yes it is. Has previous administrations failed to address our needs as americans...yes they have. Lets fix this problem before we all drown in the costs of the corporate profiteers. This is a right of the people to live and pursue their happiness.

How can you say that with the Republican majority blindly following the Administration into two wars one unjustified and the other proving to be one we will never win? Instilling fear, lying, deceiving and spying on the American public all the way.

At least this Administration tries to bring things to debate before it takes action.

Oh, lets not forget how Obama and that little girl who asked him that question was staged!! The little girl is the daughter of one of Obamas friends. LOL, Now that town hall was staged! Then he compares the usps which is goverment run, to UPS and Fed-ex which are doing well but USPS is broke. gees, you lefties really like corruption. why dont you look up his Czars and see who he is surrounding himself with. Try googling John Holdren his science Czar, he also advises Obama on healthcare. I have researched these people and you left wing people turn your heads to it. What ashame!!!!

Notice that the people screaming the loudest are, I am sure, already insured--or so they think. They are mouthing off words that they don't have a clue concerning their true meaning. Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, veteran's medical and educational programs, SCHIP (which provides health care for indigent children), student loan assistance, plus many more programs, are "socialist"--to the core. The word "Nazi" is a demonic word descriptive of unspeakably horrific, inhumane behavior that is loosely thrown around by mindless creeps like Limaugh, Beck, and others of their vile ilk.

The United States is, by far, the richest nation in world history. But, poor babies, we can not "afford" to provide access to health care for 50,000,000 of our inhabitants. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Many of us are fat, lazy, and intellectually, and I hate to use this phrase, as dumb as stumps. We read very little and sit in front of our TV's watching programs of the lowest common denominator--crap, in other words.

I have also noticed that the mobs at many "town hall meetings" are 99.99999% white. Hmmmm, I wonder why.

You hit it right on the head Jessica, people are frustrated, disappointed and unable to come to terms that they were sold a bill of goods with nothing behind it but talk.

Umm, why hasn't MSNBC or CNN reported on their site or elsewhere about the PLANT that Obama had at his "Townhall". The young girl that asked a question and Obama acted as if he had no idea who she was? SHE IS THE DAUGHTER of a Campaign head of his!

What's the definition of someone that manipulates public discussion using false tactics and suppresses opposing views?

Well, there are 2 definitions:

PROPAGANDIST!

and

FASCIST!

Look back in history at someone else that embraced these concepts and see who you come up with!

You libs have for years loved throwing the term Fascist around without knowing what it truely means! Obama and this dem congress are PERFECT illustrations of fascism for you to learn the true meaning!

How did the Democrats attain all of those house seats and Obama wins - America is not center right any longer - possibly center left -- probably polarized into two angry ends of the spectrum which will lead to the demise of this great experiment in democracy - the US loses. We are not leading the civilized world when we can't be civil.

Jessica, you've hit the nail on the head. The majority of the American people are beginning to wake up and see things for themselves, instead of being swayed by pretty words and eloquent speaking. And rightly so, we're angry for being fed all the lies just so the BHO followers could take power. Some of us saw through the words and didn't vote for this administration, but we're stuck with it for four years......unless the American people unite and call for impeachment.

As far as what you said Sam......why should we provide anything for the people that aren't willing to work and make a respectable living. No, health care isn't cheap, but neither is beer or cigarettes. I'm sick of going to the grocery store and seeing these people with food cards buying more expensive meats and dry goods than I can afford, and then walk over to the cigarette counter and buy two or three cartons of cigarettes because the government bought all their groceries for them. Then, get into a newer model car than I. You said the "mobs" are 99.99999% white? That's because their are no ACLU's or NAACP's or Lulac to fight our cause. Lose the racist issues, and live equally....we all have the same opportunities.

Arnie wrote: "How did the Democrats attain all of those house seats and Obama wins"

Answer: Acorn and Voter fraud! PROVEN! Only problem is that the US really has no means by which to correct the results of a fraudulent election. Only to hand out slight fines and other minial punishments. Of course, with the dems, investigations are blocked or quietly squelched.

aja2007, the Republicans of 1860 were progressive liberals. They were NOTHING like the conservative Republicans of 2009. The Repubs and Dems have virtually swapped platforms since 130 years ago. So your assertion that Republican freed the slaves of the US doesn't really mean much. It's simply not the same party now that it was in 1860. If that were true, it would be Repubs demanding reform instead of Dems.

Another little historical fact that you all are forgetting was that Lincoln didn't really want to free the slaves and never felt that people of color were equal to whites. Interesting how everyone wants to conveniently forget about that. There were, and still are, people who think slavery is wrong, but that doesn't mean they don't think other ethnicities aren't inferior.

Janeinthisworld, you must be a product of Calif school systems. Where do you get your history from? DailyKOS ?

Lincoln was an opponent of slavery even before his attempted run for the Senate (LONG BEFORE BECOMING PREZ). Even his earlier writings in 1855 prove he was passionately against slavery in a letter to Joshua Speed.

Put down the DailyKOS Kool-Aid and go back to school!

I am afraid the sheeple are people like you that follow the right wing extremists. People need to read up - fact check and stop mouthing off on what they have not bothered to learn enough to make any kind of informed opinion.

Sorry, add to that the Peoria Speech in 1854

excerpt: "[The Act has a] declared indifference, but as I must think, covert real zeal for the spread of slavery, I cannot but hate it. I hate it because of the monstrous injustice of slavery itself. ..."

Again, don't trust everything your lib professors try to jam down your throat!

kristin your post 2.32 copied here

Rbach...leaning right does not mean...that you are for slavery, against a woman's right to vote etc...I know the difference between right and left, conservative vs. liberal, Dem vs. Rep...you labeled the right with your comments. Just because someone is right...or if this nation leaned right (Which I don't believe it does) doesn't mean those things would not have happened.

I am really sick and tired of many assuming that because you lean to one side of the spectrum means you are close minded and uncompassionate. However...I will give you this...we most likely would not have the social programs you listed.....but then there was a great depression...because my grandparents leaned to the right...and they loved Roosevelt so perhaps many loved those programs because they needed them so badly regardless of their leanings.

First the debate was regarding a statement that someone said this country is right leaning and always has been it was actually in post 2.0

Yes indeed if the fact was that this country was always right leaning we would still have slavery, women would not have rights and there would be no social programs what so ever -- see history will show you that the right argued to keep slavery because it was in their bibles-- the right argued to keep women from equal rights because their bible says women are second class citizens -- they used the same arguments to keep interracial marriage illegal and they are using the very same arguments today to keep homosexuals from marriage equality

The right is opposed to any change, the right is opposed to progress, the right is immovable

I did not claim that anyone who leans in any direction is closed minded -- indeed the far right as well as the far left appear to be closed minded

Might I add 1837 in his protest of slavery in the Illinois HR

Want me to go on? Or do you now realize your libby friends are ignorant?

So, Kristin (aka Janeinthisworld ?)

You finally going to give up on this "Lincoln was for slavery until the war changed him" crap?

As I cited, his speeches and protests AGAINST slavery in 1855, 1854 and at least as far back as 1837!

Funny how you libs like to change history. However, the great thing about history is that it actually doesn't change with you! (and unfortunately, you libs never learn from it either!)

Enough of your garbarge! Unless you have the FACTS, stop spewing! You're getting us all wet!

P.S> You may now proceed with reporting my comments to the Obama gestapo. Don't forget to tag them as "Fishy" ;)

ken

I think you have this wrong -- kristin has said she is right leaning

The debate on slavery was dealing with right vs left Lincoln would be classified as a liberal by all accounts the democrats at that time were classified as right wing nutters so through history both parties have drastically changed

I do not see where any libs are trying to change history but do see the right wing nutters in a constant effort to re-write history

Do you have any examples of how libs are trying to change history?

I agree some of that is going on, but I also think there is a lot of frustration that people feel they have legitimate concerns and they are not being listened to. I think most people want changes to the existing health care system (and that will always be true), but a lot of these people do not like some of the specific changes being discussed.

There are distortions and outright lies being put out by both sides right now.

Just curious...how would you react if the government decided to start a war with Iran and N. Korea? If you felt they were not listening to your concerns would you eventually start protesting? Would you yell anti-war slogans?

I'm not saying yelling is the best approach, but people are frustrated right now because they do not feel their representatives are listening.

PS: I voted for Obama

There's a place for protest in this country, Ron, but these aren't peaceful protests we're talking about. They're invading legitimate forums for public discussion and shutting them down. If they were asking questions, voicing concerns, and then waiting for answers like reasonable people, that'd be another matter entirely, but they aren't. They're hired thugs, not legitimate protestors.

Socialized medicine is not a rational solution to anything ask your Canadian or English friends who come here for their medical treatment.

I have both English and Canadian friends who are very happy with their healthcare systems. The only ones who aren't happy about them are the Insurance companies.

Henry,

For over a year now I've tried to to find this mythical Canadian you speak of that prefers the US system to the Canadian one. The one exception was the Canadian pharmaceutical salesman .... is he the "rational " one you are referencing?

Canadians coming here for treatment are about the availability of the proceedures - not the insurance. We do have more radical proceedures available that other countries won't insure. Who said totally socialized? NO ONE. As for my limited knowledge - it is supposed to be a mix. For those of us afraid of Pure Socializm - it always fails - true. But, we already have a mixed economy now! Police Force, Public Schools, Transportation...do you want everything privatized?

Hey Maurice, where do you think all of their medical technology comes from? Maybe they should just use Canadian advancements and see where that gets them...Oh, please remind us what the Canadian tax rate is also.

Granted -- thank you for your comment. I agree wholeheartedly. People haven't even SEEN the bill proposed yet, and they are already screaming. Most of them are rightwing Conservatives, and they don't want to change ANYTHING. Heaven forbid that the Democrats do something practical -- it would certainly make the GOP look bad, and we can't have that. I'm neither a liberal or a conservative -- I'm in the middle, and I'm waiting to see what the actual proposal is going to be before I start writing my Congressman/woman. God, people, wait for the proposal before you start screaming, and I certainly haven't heard a single one of you come up with your own viable plan to fix healthcare (and we CERTAINLY need to fix it). Yes, I have insurance with my company -- it isn't the greatest; I could use better, I'm sure. I'm also concerned about how it might change my insurance here at my office, but until they come up with the actual proposal....I will wait patiently (and quietly) and see what comes up. Again, if I don't like it....I can THEN complain.

Mark,

Your making this too easy !!

The MAXIMUM CANADIAN Federal Tax Rate is 29% . ( Ref. T-1, Sch 1, Canadian Income Tax Return)

Let's not let the direction of our country be determined by an unhinged and radical few.

Precisely my thoughts, vote all the partisan scum out of office and replace them with people who will protect my freedom of choice in every aspect of my life outside of murder and mayhem. These purveyors of government excess are indeed radicals.

None of my English/Canadian/European friends want an US-style health care system in their country. I wonder ... why is that? US style is the best, isn't it?? Don't get me wrong ... US health care facilities/equipment/procedures are among the best, if not THE best, in the world ... but insurance thru your employer (here today, gone tomorrow, pre-existing conditions)? No one else wants it. What good is a top-notch facility to you when you cannot pay for it yourself, and the insurance company won't cover you (if you have insurance, that is)?

I've had some interesting conversations while on vacation with some Canadians regarding their healthcare system. In a word, they love it. They say that what we are hearing in the US is the voice of a disgruntled few fueled by US insurance and drug companies. I believe them.

"Hey Maurice, where do you think all of their medical technology comes from?" - Mark.

So let me see. The US public pays for all this expensive pharma research, and the Canadians negotiate a lower price for these drugs for their population? Who's the stupid one here?

I am fearful that our seniors are being pushed by the lies and ditortions because of low information and ability to gather the facts....It is a sad state of affairs when our most vulnerable are prey for the Corps /some republicans! Granted there a 'paid for' rebel rousers in the group but they prove to incite riot!

I hear real concerns-based on the lies-being voiced..Once again It is all about education!!

I have read HR3200--find it to be so much spaggetti thrown at the wall...Written by aides with things stuffed in at odd intervals...This is far from a complete or usable legal document!

Nothing happens until it and others go to 'Conference'!

Mark L-464288, most of the patents in drugs and medical appliences and treatments are taken out by ---EUROPEANS, where 60% of the pharma and medical companies are located.

I see you are still buying the BS myth about USA NUMBER ONE HOOHA.

UpstateNY- I agree with you. I just returned from Canada and found that the people I met were very happy with their health care. They voted the individual who began the program the most influential Canadian. I also have friends that live there and have had very good medical treatment. My friends in Germany and England are also very satisfied. I KNOW we are not getting the true story from our right wing party...

"Saddled" with the world's best health care system?? Brilliant. Pay for your own health care!

Carlos, if you oppose health care reform, you are endoring control by insurance companies over peoples' lives. Insurance companies make medical decisions, limiting treatment options, limiting choice of doctors, deny service and deny payment every day. Do you think that control over your life by private business is better than control by government? I realize your position is based on philosophy, but in this world reality often trumps philosophy.

Maybe we should not allow protest? Maybe we should try surpression? It has been done before. Never lasts forever, but it has been done. Over and over and over and over and over...........

We aren't talking about not protesting, we are talking about having a civil discussion.... Tha attitude is why the Republicans lost last elections. This is why I call the right wing "The Republican Enquirer."

Please don't bring racial issues into this debate.

I think it's pretty obvious that it's a non-issue since he won the presidency.

Stay on topic please!

What, does the truth hurt Jessica? How come Obama has seen a huge increase of death threats since he became president compared to Bush II?

There are racists out there (of all races in all countries), but I believe the percentage of health care protesters that are there because Obama is black is a tiny, tiny minority.

Ludicrous. You're as bad as those birthers. Race is a complete non-issue at this level.

Hmm...BJ? The truth about what?

Have you stopped to think that maybe Obama has received more threats because of the policies that he would like to get through Congress?He says one thing and then does another. Please take the blinders off.

I seriously doubt it has to do with the color of his skin...

I am absolutely amazed by the faith that many people on this board have in Obama. Can't wait for 2010/2012.

Sorry, Jessica- There is a definite racial overtone to politics, since Obama's election. The FBI has reported a huge surge in activity among "White Power" organizations. Look at the crowds of Health Care Protesters. How many black faces and how many white? There are a lot of people in this country who won't admit it, but can't stand that a black guy is in the white house. They want to do everything they can to "see him fail"; as Limbaugh put it. I wonder, had McCain been elected and tried to reform health care, would we be seeing the same outrageous level of protests?

The comment is correct - specifically around the Memphis area. I've seen so much hate that I am embarrassed for the rest of my life. I am a heinz-57 myself and don't care what color someone is - as long as they do the job. But down here - if Obama was white - it would make a HUGE HUGE difference.

Yeah right, like the racists are NOT going to take advantage of any situation to try to make Obama look bad !

April you are more correct than not.

A.Doria - The threats against Obama started even BEFORE he took office. I doubt it highly that the majority of the ignoramuses who have threatened him even know what he really stands for.

Yeah, I can't wait for 2010/2012 - it'll be a lot of fun watching the Republicans getting creamed once again. Keep up the bull - it'll happen.

April - Your comment is ridiculus. Can't people disagree with policy without it being a race issue? There are extremists on both sides and although it is unfortunate that will never change. However, to suggest this uproar on healthcare as a whole is because of race is damaging to your argument. Dig deeper.

Lol, you people absolutely amaze me.

We are talking about HEALTH CARE...how race becomes apart of this issue, I have no idea.

By the way BJ, thanks for the laugh...to think that the democrats will still hold the majority after 2010? Hahahaha...that's a good one!

Totally agree with you April.

Has anyone, anyone at all even attempted to answer one question from

Ron Christman? That is an excellent post!!!

April-Mathis

I have suspected the same thing. Perhaps the town hall meetings should be held after dark when most of the lunatic fringe are attending Klan meetings.

There are racial undertones. Why does it seem that the loudest and foulest opponents are white? Have you looked at the videos of the crowds? Middle to late aged white people. this all started during the run up to the election - palin trying to paint Obama as not being one of us. The birther nonsense - if Obama was white do you think there would be any question of his origin? No, there would not be. What's left of the republican party represent the absolute worst in this country. The bottom feeders being yanked around by corporate lobbyists - the only problem is they're so blinded by their bigotry and hatred that they can't even see that they're being played for fools. Yep, they represent the absolute worst of America.

Nice Posts! At least we can't hear each other grumbling and yelling at our computer screens!

Obama gets 30 death threats a day---way up since the debate began---There is a real undercurrent to this ---the repubs and vile paid for corporate stooges --just can not bring themselves to say it...

But that is not all---there are REAL concerns by real people who have been fed lies and distortions by the media and the lobbyists for corporations and some in the republican party!!! Lets not lump all repubs into the bucket ---It is the partyliners and scared to death of change group and the religious right that will be held accountable for lack of action and voting against the will of the people! There will be some Dems fall to this as well!!

When will NBC, ABC, and CBS have the guts to have Wendell Potter on ..Once again they are being scooped by cable...and Talk radio! No wonder the viewership of regular TV is dropping like a stone!

For everyone who is against all government programs, could you please stop cashing your Social Security check and your unemployment check and just sign them over to me?

THANKS!

Jessica- Race has become an issue among those that didn't vote for him for precisely that reason!
Have you noticed that over 95% of those being loud, rude and obnoxious at the townhall meetings are white? They even have children holding posters.... pulling a Palin.
Also, when the white female tore the poster the black female was posting only one got kicked out. It wasn't the white female that went to the black female , took the poster and tore it!
I think many (not all) white people are having a difficult time dealing with the changing faces of America. They are losing control and don't know how to deal with it so they cry, "We want our country back."

Greg-
Do you mind sharing?
Also, don't send your children to public schools, accept Section 8 (helps with housing), SSI, disability insurance, etc....

I'm sure your getting enough.

Those of you who think that race plays no role in the actions of the disruptors should take a look at what the Southern Poverty Law Center has compiled on the subject. Here's an example: http://www.splcenter.org/news/item.jsp?aid=361

Great post Susanne!

Yeah, the problems come when people start shouting each other down and disrupting the process, rather than contributing to it.

Great comment Susanne! But its rather difficult to follow these suggestions when you have people shouting over you determined to STOP all meaningful discussion. Then there's the guy who wore a loaded weapon when he showed up at the town hall where the President was appearing. That is what truly scares me about these people!

what's with all the swastika nonsense on the Georgia congressman's office? Do you think the yahoos who paint swastikas know that the Nazi party was officially called the National Socialist German Worker's Party (sounds vaguely communist)? Did these yahoos even graduate elementary school?

Agree with you Suzanne, but emotions will always be engaged with these subjects. Anyone that has started a riot knows this - can't riot if you're not upset. Look at Iran. Emotion. As long as the aformentioned talking head are spewing hate - someone who is scared will suck it up like the truth depended on it. Some of these posts are really elegant and well thought out. Thanks for the vicarious education!!

My favorite quotes from this group of protesters are "Keep your government hands off of my medicare...."! Or "If you like the post office and the Department of Motor Vehicles and you think they're run well, just wait till you see Medicare, Medicaid and health care run by the government"

How stupid are these people?

Oh, much further back than eight years! Don't forget Joe McCarthy in the '50s and red-baiting!

WONDERFUL comment. Thank you for taking the time to write all this, I am in 100% agreement with you. I'm a hardworking American who has had to spend all the equity in my home to pay for medical and dental copays/uncovered items for myself and my daughter. I now have to pay 200.00 per month for her health premium, that is just for catastrophic coverage, i.e. very high copays and deductibles. The premium increases 20.00 per month every year--that's 2400.00 more per year for same care. The only thing not increasing is my salary.

And which site did you copy this from?

If you want bureaucrats coming between you and your doctor, then my all means oppose health care reform, that is exactly what you get from the insurance companies.

Great post! (I tried to capitalize that statement to show great excitement - newsvine said you can't "yell" here and wouldn't let me post it in caps - sort of ironic, hey?)

If you want to have to liable for the first $2,100 BEFORE the mighty government kicks in to assist you, be all means support this garbage!

How much is the deductible for your private insurance, Andrew?

I agree with Robert... I'm a physician and I have no trouble with Medicare dictating what I can and can't do, it's the private companies.

I agree with you 100 %. It is wonderfull to find someone that is really well informed as you are. I lived in Europe for many years - they are all completely satisfied with their systems - we pay the most and are at 37th place! ! !

In response to "Lize" - I didn't copy this from any site. I wrote it myself, this morning.

Linda, Robert, Bucsfan, HDSHRNKR, Katherine - thank you. :-)

If you would like a single payer health plan ( the ultimate goal of President Obama) then yes, you should support this plan. If you think the Government should decide if you get treatment or not please feel free to support this plan. If you want a health plan managed like the US Post Office (President Obama's words not mine) Feel free to support this plan.

I for one, want less Government in my business, so I will not support this plan. This is my right as a US Citizen and Guaranteed by the first amendment of the constitution. I will not go quietly into the night.

Great response Dave! Finally someone who has paid attention to the facts instead of the propaganda intended to create fear!!! You are absolutely correct, but somehow I do not think this will be quoted on FOX!

One of the best comments yet, Dave. Couldn't have said it better. You left out one shining example of 'rationed care'. About 1-2 years ago, a woman in Southern CA needed a transplant. One of the largest health care providers in CA denied her the transplant. She had to appeal and fight to get the coverage. Finally, the provider relented and agreed to pay for the transplant. Hours after this decision, the woman died. And you people who oppose health care reform want this to continue?

Well said. I particularly like the point about the citzens of Canada not clamoring for our style healthcare. Why indeed are not all the other western industrialized nations attempting to copy the "American System" if it’s so good? They copy everything else we do. Do we actually believe that the Canadians, the French, the British, the Swiss, and so on would allow their governments to let a good thing like American style healthcare slip by if it were the best system? I think there are reasonable and intelligent folks living in all those nations and they know that their system of healthcare is infinitely superior to the slapdash, bloated, profit driven, economically discriminative, out of control, non-competative, monolithic, horror of a method we have here now.

Dave,

Thank you for the post. I agree and think its ashame that so many people are being misled by false information. They are protesting against there own best interests.

I thought it was really interesting that the man that claimed to have been injured in Tampa had no health insurance and was asking for donations to help pay for his medical care.

I am also concerned about the safetly of our Representatives, Senators, and the President. Glenn Beck , Dick Morris and Rush are encouraging people to terrrorize them. It is only a matter of time until someone takes that literally and resorts to violence.

I pray for the safety of all.

benram, the fact is that we pay more and get worse care than every other industrialized country in the world. You LIKE paying more to get LESS? I don't! Seniors overwhelmingly like and approve of Medicare. Most other industrialized countries have the OPTION of paying for your own health care and health insurance. Again - want to pay more? Feel free! But having worked in insurance for years, I can tell you some facts:

The larger the risk pool (i.e. - number of insureds), the better rates you can get.

The larger the risk pool, the more doctors/providers want access to that pool.

The current system puts an insurance executive in between you and your doctor RIGHT NOW.

And if you'd read my entire post, you'd know that Medicare overhead is 3-5%, and private coverage is 20-40%. You'd rather pay MORE for executive salaries (like the UHC CEO who makes $102,000 AN HOUR), and get LESS money to pay for YOUR care? The VA gets the HIGHEST APPROVAL of ANY medical care in the U.S. - and it's GOVERNMENT RUN! Bill Kristol of the Weekly Standard (a conservative) admitted that the VA is a FIRST CLASS health care system. And it's run by who, benram? The government.

You of course are welcome to pay more and get less. That is most certainly your right. But as an American, I expect to pay less and get more, and a government OPTION (not takeover) is the way I'd like to go.

LM, Napachild (good point!), Bambooman and Susan - thank you as well. :-)

Fantastic! Well Said.

Dave - your comment is the most profound comment that has been made so far. I totally agree with you. People are not taking the facts into consideration and looking seriously at the reasons we need to overhaul our healthcare system. They just want to go along with the "status quo" despite the many problems we have. And, they seem to think we'll be spending trillions of dollars on the new healthcare plan -- we ALREADY spend trillions of dollars on the current system and get terrible care!! Keep a level head, Dave, we're with you.

Medic and Didi - much appreciated!

Here's a good link that shows how the U.S. is not getting as good care and is paying more for the "privilege."

http://blogs.consumerreports.org/health/2009/07/americas-health-versus-other-countries-organization-for-economic-cooperation-and-development-data-he.html

Fabulous post, Dave!! Wonder if any of the right wingers would bother to read it?? Just might give them, at least, some food for thought!! One can dream, can't one??

You are better at this than me. I agree with all of your points.

cjn - much of my post was written by thinking of what conservatives often use as arguments against health care reform. I'm often astounded that no one really deconstructs their arguments and points out many of the logical fallacies they contain. That's what I tried to do - if anyone wants to print this or post it elsewhere, feel free. Or better yet, ask your friends and neighbors these questions if they're against reform, to see what they say. Nothing wrong with a debate, as long as we use the facts.

Thanks Mike!

Very well thought out and said, Dave. I wish some of the "Professional Newspeople" would give such a well reasoned response to the lies and nonsense.

benramz2 - I'll bet you'll be lining up to collect your social security and get your medicare coverage though won't you. Yeah, save the selective "keep government out of my life" nonsense for the other dimwits that believe it.

Amazing comment Dave - says it all!

I'm a Canadian and I would NEVER want to have an American-style, for profit, corporate greed driven health insurance system. Here's a hint Americans - health insurance should be a socialized thing - private companies have not brought anything to the table other than more red tape, denials of care (as that saves them money and boosts profits) and deaths of approximately 18,000 Americans each year due to a lack of health treatment. That is six 9/11s each year caused by private insurance and health care that is unaffordable! American drug prices are the MOST expensive in the world because the US government refuses to negotiate better deals (until now). America pays $7000/year/person for health care, twice as much as France or Canada, but has the worst health results of any industrialized nation. The sad fact is that many in your government do not represent you, but the corporations who feed them the campaign contributions. As a Canadian, if I were to get in a car accident, even if I didn't have a job, I could go to hospital, get any number of surgeries, and do you know what my bill would be? Zero!

As for taxes, yes, Canadians pay a little more in tax, but I don't have to pay $14,000 per year for health insurance with my income. Canadians also only pay around $5000 per year to go to the best Canadian universities. My student loan was only $20,000 when I graduated - what was yours?

You are lucky to have a president like Obama who is actually trying to help the very people who are screaming at him by giving them cheaper health care. He needs help though, the special interests who stand to lose billions if reform is enacted are throwing everything they've got at him. The biggest losers will be the regular Americans, like the fools who come to town halls and scream "leave my Medicare alone" in the same sentence as "I don't want socialized medicine" not realizing that Medicare is a socialized medicine program. Obama personally has the best health care in the world already, he's not doing this for himself. Silence of the majority means that a loud and misinformed minority could derail this reform and then all will continue suffer. Some things should not be about politics - the current health system is bankrupting America and killing thousands of people each year. Socializing health insurance is not the only answer though - people also need to eat better and be more active. Prevention is the best cure.

Thank you Dave...so happy another level-headed person actually paying attention and engaging in meaningful research.

Not fooled by distractions

benramz2 - I'll bet you'll be lining up to collect your social security and get your medicare coverage though won't you. Yeah, save the selective "keep government out of my life" nonsense for the other dimwits that believe it.

Just so you know, I will be there to collect the money that I have paid into the system. This is a system that was created before I was born and was quite solvent until the Government decided that it could borrow against this money.

I do not owe the Government or any of the lazy do nothings a thin dime, I work hard for the 50k that I make every year. The bigger the Government gets the less money that I have to take care of my family. Maybe you should do some research, get a job and worry about what the Government is going to do to you instead of thinking about all the freebies you think you deserve.

As an independent, which sucks since I can't vote in any primary. I have to say I am all for medical reform. I just don't agree that creating a government entity to provide health insurance is necessary or a good idea. Why not create faith by first fixing the medicare system? No, they have to go all or nothing. This administrations problem is that they haven't proved they can fix anything yet they are trying to fix everything. It is like hiring a contractor who has no referrals to build a billion dollar high rise. You don't know what they can do because you haven't seen them accomplish anything. So far everything they've touched is tainted even if the ultimate outcome is positive. That is the problem with ear marks and pork barrel spending. You can't just institute one fix, you have to literally con your pet projects and lobbyist agendas into every single bill. The bill that you support is never the one you get. Also keep in mind that people aren't necessary looking at tomorrow's changes but predicting which is next. The instant increase in government control from the moment this administration took control bodes ill for the future because it is just an indication of more of the same. This does seem like a socialist agenda, however I am not saying it is... it just seems like that could ultimately be the end result.

Also it doesn't matter how great our health care system is if the personal care never improves. You have to take care of yourself to be healthy. The mortality numbers won't change until people take their personal health into account. My frustration in all of this is that my tax dollars will be going towards taking care of people after they fail to take care of themselves.

I am a mental health clinician and like the MD above, Medicare does not dictate my treatment the way the for-profit insurance companies do. I'll take Medicare any day. Profit and care do not work in the same sentence when it comes to health care.

Ravenous, I don't understand what you're talking about: Cash for Clunkers was such a success, it required more money in just 4 days. So it was obviously a rousing success, that helped sell cars and put auto workers back to work. The Dow is up above the level it was when Obama took office. The banking system did not collapse, and has shown good signs of being healthy. The job losses are slowing dramatically, and 90% of economists expect the recession to end this quarter.

What do you mean Obama hasn't done anything right? I'd say based on that track record alone, he's the right guy to fix health care. What did Bush propose for health reform? Nothing at all.

Mama, b, pennie and UpstateNY - thank you all for the nice comments.

I love what you have said here, Dave. After reading your post I was able to breathe a big sigh of relief...finally, a voice of reason.

Dave, Keith D here, that's what I'm talkin about! The Heck with who hates who and what color the anger is. Let's stop whinning and expecting things from a system that isn't or is not ready to do anything about healthcare and do it ourselves! Ever stop to wonder what politicians would do if nobody said anything at a town hall meeting? Or what would happen if we all took a day of stoppage on say,m gas use or maybe a work out. Not a black or white work out, but an everybody work out. Whether for or against healthreform, such tactics would make government and coporations and insurance companies stop and take note. The real power in a democracy lies with the people. It's a shame most of us don't know what to do with it.

You wrote that this morning, but I have read it at least 10 time in the past week on the vine?

From above:

"If you think it's a bad thing for individuals to discuss living wills and end of life care with their doctor: Then oppose health care reform>"

Why in the world would it be a bad thing to discuss end of life care with a doctor? Isn't that exactly what 99% of people who are terminally ill in a hospital do? Regardless of whether there is health care reform, the first thing people in these situations do IS discuss this issue with doctors.

worriedrwnc - really? Where did you read that? I guarantee you I wrote that this morning, and it's not been posted anywhere else except on the FirstRead website a few minutes before I posted it here. Where are the links to the "prior" ones? Link 'em, please, otherwise, you're LYING.

Greg - that was my point: It's NOT a bad idea, it's GOOD one! If people think discussing end of life care is a bad idea, they should oppose health care reform. The HCR currently wending its way through Congress DOES include provisions for Medicare to reimburse this discussion with doctors and patients. I agree with you; it's a good thing.

Dave- Awesome job........ I REALLY wish you could post this in a web that less informed people would be willing to read.
About end of life care.... My father was kept on a ventilator for an entire week although he was brain dead. They wanted to resucitate my mom after having battled cancer for over 4 years. She was 85 pounds and could not receive any more chemo... we had to take her home, couldn't get morphine to help her with pain... it is difficult.
My children know that they are not to use life support if I'm ever in a situation that would not allow me to recuperate... I've worked in enough hospitals to know what the consequences to these treatments are like. I don't think our seniors would want to be treated the way they are treated the last 3 months of life.

Thank you Dave for speaking the plain, simple truth. Why can't the media do the same?

As far as the scripture is concerned - you point a "you should feel guilty" finger here but when it's an issue like Prop 8 liberals always say the Bible is outdated. So, which is it?

America's poorest states give the most to charity because they are full of good people. These are also the hated red states. It's not human nature for people to take food from your own children and give it to someone that's not even trying but Americans have been doing it for decades. Can you see where some might get tired of it?

Here! Here! <applause> Well said, Dave!

Maritza, ownup, PSzymeczek - thank you. :-)

Jonah - I never pointed a "you should feel guilty" finger. I pointed out that many Christians are of the "me first" variety, and think that somehow they shouldn't have to help others. If you (or others) feel guilty about yourself, well, those are your feelings that you'll have to work through. But I take issue with the idea that simply because America's poorer states "give more" (according to you) that they are "full of good people." Are you suggesting liberal states don't have "good people"? Many of those red states also have the highest rates of pornography usage, domestic violence, divorce and teen&out of wedlock pregnancy. Furthermore, those "poor" states are also the recipients of a greater percentage of federal tax money - which is redistributed from the richer, "liberal" states. So the liberals DO help the poor; they fund their roads, Medicare/Medicaid, Social Security, etc., via the mechanism of the federal government. Seeing as how those "giving" red states haven't figured out how to care for their uninsured, it seems to me that setting up a "Medicare for all" type system would be a darn good way of achieving better coverage for more Americans than the "free for all market" system that has failed many of us for the last 60 years.

And as far as Prop 8 goes, I'm most definitely NOT one of those conservative "Christians" that tells other people how they should live their lives (which is ironic, considering most conservatives don't want anyone telling them how pay for health care!) like James Dobson or Tony Perkins. I believe that God accepts all people who believe in His Son, whether they are gay, bi, transgendered or anything else. What amazes me are the conservative Christians that tell people like that they're going to hell, when Jesus clearly ate with all manner of "sinners."

Don't stereotype me as an overzealous "lib" of some kind (not that there's anything wrong with liberals or conservatives who genuinely hold reasonable, well-thought out opinions). I'm a pretty moderate, Christian guy who has read his Bible all the way through, twice, and understands that labelling people without asking them their views is not a good way to hold a productive conversation.

And I really don't understand the "food/human nature" argument - all I know is that Jesus said if someone is hungry, feed them. He didn't qualify that by saying, "Ask if they can help themselves first." He didn't say, "If you get tired of it, you can stop by justifying it to yourself." He asked for SACRIFICE of His followers. If you don't want to sacrifice for Him, DON'T FOLLOW HIM! There's other religions out there; find another one that doesn't ask you to do something hard. Sometimes helping someone with food opens the door to showing them HOW to help themselves, because they may not know how. Assuming that they "can't" or "won't" is a poor way to show mercy, grace or love IMO.

Yes, you were trying to make people feel guilty and yes maybe I should feel guilty - maybe we all should. Without this perfect, highly evolved government telling you too - how much would you sacrifice? I've read the bible through and through many times and you do make a good point but the socialism represented in books like Acts worked because they all had a common goal to follow God. Does this work under a corrupt government (both parties) - I'm not sure? Yes, I agree that the south (especially Mississippi) has high teenage pregnancy rates and the like, so you got me there also. But - I never said I agreed with it. Jesus didn't want sexual immorality of any kind so we've all fallen short but I was pointing out that you can't pick and choose.

Before we go too far with the poor state issue I brought up let it be known that the rich and middle class are all across the country so when you think of the south don't think we're all sitting on our front porch, picking a banjo, spitting chew and wearing overalls. Don't think we're all wading in water stealing TV's and DVD players. Remember where the oil is. We just have more of a generational welfare problem in the south - kids that are in a cycle of mimicking their parents - mostly inner city. The gov. is partly to blame for this too.

If the bible says plainly something is wrong and you ignore it but only pick out the versus "you like" then you are just as much of a hypocrite. That's what I was trying to say. If I'm wrong, so are you. I don't understand your logic that we're all going to heaven no matter what because Jesus ate with sinners. There was a reason for that...

Yes, Jesus ate "with all manner of sinners" and loves sinners because he wanted them to CHANGE...

When he sat at dinner at Levi's house and the Pharisees saw he was eating with tax collectors and sinners they asked the disciples "Why does he eat with them?" Jesus overheard and answered "Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick; I've come to call not the righteous but sinners"

He didn't mean that he wanted them to stay sick or to continue in sin. And just because he ate with them doesn't mean they went to heaven. When you follow him you will evenutally get better by obeying him and studying what he expects of his followers and you will be forgiven - but to continue in sin without regret or repentance is not the way to heaven. So yes I do believe that there are people that are going to hell because of scriptures that you've chosen to ignore. This doesn't just go for the gay issue that I brought up, but for all sin. BUT you still ignore some scripture because it's in the old testament and Jesus ate with sinners? Or is it simply because you don't agree with it? Did you really think Jesus was going to come to earth to hang out with religious people - no, he wanted to cure the sick, change the sinners. Where does it say "Jesus ate with the sinners and tax collectors and told them that they were cool going in the direction they were going. They're all going to heaven anyway."?

Now don't get me wrong, I'm far from perfect and I'm sure that I'm living far too comfortably when I should be out there giving and being a disciple to the less fortunate BUT is it the governments job to force anyone into this? If this government wasn't so far from what I believe in on so many issues then maybe I wouldn't be so distrustful of it. Is socialism the way to go? - we'll see. Maybe a turn back to God would solve this problem without a secular government's games. Are you giving like the bible says without the government making it the standard? Are you sacrificing on your own? Are you better than the rest of us?

I'm not a political genius but it scares me when I read Karl Marx and he says "First you socialize medicine and everything else follows like night follows day." If you want to put into place his ideas and you say that you are a Christian then think about his other views. Marx also says "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call them to give up their illusions about their conditions is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions."

These false idol politicians that you would like us so to depend on are going to let you down. These guys in DC that think they are little gods are not the answer to the country's problems. Do you think that these politicians are seriously going to socialize medicine because Jesus said that we should sacrifice for one another. I assure you that it's the farthest thing from their minds. This is why I think you are trying to pull one over on Christians by bringing this up. If they (your anointed political leaders) really believed this they wouldn't allow babies to be killed in the third trimester and they wouldn't attack the "Christian right" every chance they get like we're all redneck idiots.

If you are truly a Christian - look at socialized country's like Sweden and tell me how spiritual they are. Sweden is up to 85% atheist. Europe in general is pretty atheistic - so when you quote the bible in support of a socialist movement in this country you might be shooting yourself in the foot. I'm afraid socialized medicine is just the start of a snowball effect that may take decades to completely saturate us but when it does there are plenty of examples out there of how we'll end up. If this stops at medicine I will be surprised and impressed and I will admit that I'm wrong.

Jonah, you're sadly mistaken on so many points. First off, I never said nor implied half of what you've accused me of saying. I don't appreciate you making such false accusations such as, "...don't think we're all sitting on our front porch, picking a banjo, spitting chew and wearing overalls. Don't think we're all wading in water stealing TV's and DVD players" (I never SAID nor IMPLIED ANY SUCH THING) or "I don't understand your logic that we're all going to heaven no matter what because Jesus ate with sinners" (I challenge you to find and QUOTE ME EXACTLY where I said or implied ANY such thing) or "And just because he ate with them doesn't mean they went to heaven." (again, WHERE, Jonah?) or "BUT you still ignore some scripture because it's in the old testament and Jesus ate with sinners?" Excuse me? What Scripture have I ignored there? Or did you overlook Galatians 3:10? I'd rather not be cursed by observing the Law - I'm under the grace and mercy of Christ, thankyouverymuch.

And you know, I believe that our government is what it says it is in the Constitution: A government of, by and for the people. If you think that the government is "out to get you" or something, then you've bought into some serious propaganda from somewhere. I know you have on at least one of those Marx quotes - here, just take a look for yourself:

http://www.rightwingwatch.org/category/individuals/allen-unruh

Don't you think someone is trying to take advantage of YOUR fear to get you to do something that is in line with THEIR agenda? Clearly, Allen Unruh has, and he did a good job of spreading a lie to get people like you scared of helping others through government health care reform.

Do you know what Medicare is? Do you know how popular it is with seniors? Do you know that that IS a socialized medicine program, that is RUN BY THE GOVERNMENT? It's the government, helping seniors get much-needed medical care. Perfect? No. But better than the NON EXISTENT medical care most seniors had before it was passed.

What would Jesus say about a government that cares for it's seniors? I think he'd agree we were right to do that as a nation. Better question: What would Jesus say about a country that DOESN'T care about 47 million UNINSURED Americans when it DOES care for it's seniors and kids? What did Jesus say in Matthew 25?

⁴²For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, ⁴³I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' ⁴⁴"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' ⁴⁵"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' ⁴⁶"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

I'd suggest you don't accuse me of playing "pick and choose" with the Bible. I'm well aware of what Christ taught us, and I do not discount what the Old Testament says, as you falsely accused me. I'm also aware of the hypocrisy of many on the religious right who tell those in the LGBT community that they are somehow sick or deranged or going to hell simply for who they are. Jesus loves ALL - HE DID NOT PICK AND CHOOSE, unlike some on the so-called "Christian right." Remember what he said it takes to get to Heaven?

Mark 16:16, John 3:16, Acts 16:31, Romans 10:0 - they all say the same thing: If you believe, you are saved. It's really simple. Yes, there is more we should do, and yes, there are sinners. But haven't "all sinned and fallen short"?

But none of that has any relevance in a society with a government that is decidedly NOT of any one religion. We are largely a country of religious believers, and as people of faith who live in that country, I see no reason why we cannot come together in common cause to help others who do not have health coverage (not to forget the millions of Americans who could lose it any day now because of skyrocketing premiums).

The government does a "first class" job of health care through the VA - and that's according to the neo-conservative Editor of the Weekly Standard Bill Kristol! And guess what? The VA health system is 100% socialized - the doctors, hospitals, are all government owned and run. And that system gets THE HIGHEST APPROVAL rating of ANY health system in the United States.

Don't tell me the government can't run health care. They can. Medicare has lower overhead than any private insurer. And if we guaranteed coverage for all, think of the economic benefits: The next Bill Gates could start up the next Microsoft and revolutionize the country with the next BIG IDEA - provided he has a health insurance plane that doesn't deny him because of a pre-existing condition. That's the problem now - entrepreneurs can't invent/build/design "the next big thing" if they or a family member has a pre-existing condtion, because they can't afford coverage.

Not only is this morally the right thing, it will make our country more competitive, at a time when we NEED the jobs and the ability for entrepreneurs to start new businesses and create jobs.

And please, STOP accusing me of saying or believing things I never said. If you think I said something, use the "copy/paste" function and quote it. You've misreprested SO many points I said, and I really do not appreciate it, especially from someone who is claiming to be a Christian himself.

And don't be afraid of socialized medicine. It works, now, in this country, for millions of veterans and seniors. It can work for the rest of Americans too.

I believe that God accepts all people who believe in His Son, whether they are gay, bi, transgendered or anything else. What amazes me are the conservative Christians that tell people like that they're going to hell, when Jesus clearly ate with all manner of "sinners."

Maybe I misunderstood you but I assumed that you were implying that if a gay man believes in Jesus but still continues their lifestyle that it's okay? If so - of all the many sins listed in the bible that we seek forgiveness for, this rule is okay to break? So if this rule is okay to break, you can't point the finger at Christians for not being perfect when it comes to their view on socialism. Yes, we've all fallen short but there is more to it than belief.

“Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.” –Matthew 7:21

Here are the verses it seems you ignore (because you say "simply for who they are")

leviticus 18:22

leviticus 20:13

Romans 1:26-27

Genesis 19:4-5

There's a relationship and a growing process (justification and sanctification). Besides this I don't see where I put words in your mouth, I just took what you said and gave you my view on it. I was joking about the southern thing - making a point that some government programs create a revolving door of need. How could I assume that a liberal would think ill thoughts of middle and southern america...

"And it's not surprising then that they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations,"

Barack Obama

And I guess everything else that I said was just nonsense?

I never accused you of anything - seems like I hit a nerve there because I wasn't just accepting whatever you said to be gospel. NONE OF US IS AS SMART AS WE THINK WE ARE.

you've bought into some serious propaganda from somewhere

Because I disagree with you on big government I'm falling for someone's propaganda? Could it be that you are falling for propaganda from the left also? I mean, I'm pretty conservative and I don't go to sites as slanted as rightwingwatch.org - I don't need a site that caters to me like a "leftwingwatch" to have a point of view.

Here's the staggering stats on the VA posted in 2006...

Veterans who recently used VA services and were interviewed for the 2005 ACSI survey gave the VA's inpatient care a rating of 83 on a 100-point scale -- compared to a 73 rating for the private-sector health care industry. Veterans gave the VA a rating of 80 for outpatient care, five percentage points higher than the 75 rating for private-sector outpatient care and 9 percent higher than the average satisfaction rating for all federal services.

Wow - that's worth higher taxes and more government control. The difference in satisfaction might be because most of them joined the service at a very young age and haven't experienced both sides or maybe because sometimes you'll take a free burger from McDonald's to hold you over rather than pay for the better burger at say...Dave & Busters?

Re: Leviticus 18 and 20 - So... clearly you're still ignoring Galations 3:10. Interesting. I prefer not ignore verses that talk about curses. I guess that doesn't bother you. Okay.

And is any sin any greater than any other Jonah? God hates ALL sin. And if I were you, I'd stop "assuming" you think you know what other mean when there's not a shread of evidence to support your "assumption." What I said was that God still loves gay people. Do you believe He stops loving them if they believe in Him? Do you still sin? Does God still love you? Furthermore, even the tiniest bit of research into the Romans verse reveals that Paul was talking pederasty. And you seem to be ignoring Romans 2, where Paul goes on to say this:

"¹You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. ²Now we know that God's judgment against those who do such things is based on truth.³So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment? ⁴Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?...¹²All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law."

Or what about 1 Corinthians, where Paul says,

"⁵Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God."

In other words, it's NOT MY JOB and it's NOT YOUR JOB and it's not JAMES DOBSON'S job or any other Christian to sit and point finger at others that are not Christians.

How could I assume that a liberal

I don't know; how could you especially when I directly told you I'm NOT one! So now you're flat out lying, or can't read. I said prevously I'm a MODERATE. You've AGAIN said that I'm a "liberal." I'd suggest you stop lying about me, because God does indeed hate that kind of sin.

And I guess everything else that I said was just nonsense?

Where you get this notion from is absolutely beyond my comprehension.

I never accused you of anything

I quoted the exact phrases where you DID accuse me. Are you unable to read what YOU YOURSELF WROTE!?!?

Because I disagree with you on big government I'm falling for someone's propaganda?

Hmmm... you find a non-Kark Marx quote that conflates the idea of socializing medicine with a socialist takeover of everything, and then you think I'm talking about as simple disagreement? Ummm... no, Jonah. Let me make this more clear, because I don't think you're getting it: You're beliving things that are NOT TRUE. The only place that Karl Marx quote exists on the internet is right wing websites. And interestinlgy, you then try to say you haven't gone to them, but if you Google your Marx quote, the only places it shows up is FAR right websites and the one left leaning site I found - and at that, starting only in August 2009! So either Karl Marx never said that and Allen Unruh made it up out of whole cloth this month - in which case, you are believing a propaganda lie because it fits your far right world view - or no one in the whole history of the billions of pages on the internet has ever bothered to put that Karl Marx quote online. Hmmmm.... I'm going to go with the former, because I'm quite sure if Marx had actually said that, someone would have posted it long before August 2009.

And as far as the VA stats go - see, this is just more evidence that you have a propaganda-tilted view of the world. You actually provide PROOF that a socialized system is BETTER - and you're afraid of it... why? Because it WORKS? Because it provided BETTER OUTCOMES than private medicine? I fail to understand why something that works well for our SERVICE MEN and WOMEN isn't worthy of being a good option for the rest of America?

And as far as the "free burger" reference, way to go suggesting that the sacrifice that American service people have made for our country was "free." That's probably the most disgusting thing you've said yet, and it is offensive not only to me, but I'm sure all the brave men and women who fought for your right to say such drivel, and then condescend to them by saying that they are getting their health care "for free."

What's that the conservatives say all the time, "Freedom isn't free?" So you think their health care isn't worth providing to service men and women for free, and that their sacrifices aren't worth that? And what's most interesting is that you quoted on portion and then go on to denigrate those who are using VA services without even comprehending the fact that veterans have to ENROLL IN THE VA to get those services, and the ones that HAVE ENROLLED FREELY AND OF THEIR OWN VOLITION actually PREFER THE VA over the "private market."

So you've proven how much propaganda you're willing to believe, at the expense of our soldiers. Way to go! Thanks for demonstrating who you really are: An ideologue who's more interested in believing a "free market cures all" ideology, rather than the facts and evidence present to them.

Now let me get this straight:

• You think that veterans think their health care is good because it's "free" (completely ignoring their service and sacrifice to our country)
• Because it's better than private health insurance, you magically come to the sarcastic conclusion that that's not worth "higher taxes" and "more government control" (completely ignoring the fact that the higher taxes only affect those making $250,000 a year or more, and that the government already provides care to 40% of the U.S. population through the VA, Medicare, Medicaid, and other government programs that the private sector can't or won't)
• And you try to tell me that you "don't go to right wing websites" when you've clearly got an "anti government agenda" of some kind given that you can't accept the fact that the government run VA health care system is BETTER than the private sector.

Got it.

Yeah, I'd say this conversation is over, because there's obviously no way to rationally and reasonably discuss things with you as you've already made up your mind, even in the face of evidence that contradicts you're own stance!

Yep - I'm out. This is pointless.

When in the course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

The Declaration of Independence

This issue isn't people expressing themselves (hopefully based on knowing the facts). It's people whose only purpose is to shut down those meetings.

They are speaking with passion. The only one shutting the meeting down meeting is the speaker with no answer for the questions that they are being asked....

Mark L:

helllooooooo; have you watched any of the meetings or are you just ranting as you were told???

It's fine to speak passionately. However, if they want answers, they also have to listen. That's not what they are doing at these meetings. They are yelling and yelling and won't allow honest discussion. They are deliberately being disruptive and are either misinformed or want to spread misinformation.

Every year where I work our insurance goes up about 20%. Every year to keep cost level we accept a new plan that cost 20% less. That means every year we get about 20% less coverage. I know how this will end, but it can't tell my story through the histarical screaming coming from the lunatic right. I have come to dislike these folks more then I ever have though possible.

Tyrants -

Your insurance goes up about 20% every year where you work or you have to get 20% less coverage? I don't think mine has gone up 20% in ten years!! Sounds like your company is lying to you.

jonah

so you must be in a government tax payer funded job

Since the reality is Health Insurance Premiums have risen 400% in the last 10 years -- so either the tax payers are supporting your health care or your ignorant of the actual facts or even worse you are lying to us

maybe i'm mistaken as my salary (luckily) has steadily rose i don't notice these jumps. I truly haven't noticed a 400% increase in ten years with my family of four. maybe i'm not making as much as i thought

don't misunderstand - the insurance companies are highway robbery but there has got to be other options besides a government intervention - i just wish we had politicians that looked at all the options

One last thing and I'll drop it....

On paper socialized medicine looks great. It just worries me when it's put in the hands the kind of government ours has become (I'm talking rep and dem presidents, politicians) and they will have a lot on their plate when this goes through. Has any other country with 303 million people tried this? i really don't know

Look at Texas, will they even be in the union 10 yrs from now? Are you willing to lose states?

http://www.star-telegram.com/804/story/1504240.html

medicare and medicaid are both "socialized medicine." Do you suggest we stop these two programs that look great on paper? Do you want to take granny's insurance away from her? the socialized medicine argument is a load of bull. everyone knows it.

who cares if we lose Texas? If the want to leave the union because they didn't get their way in the election (or with health care), let them succeed. People from my home state (Tennessee) helped them gain their independence from Mexico. If they want the same from the US, I say let them go and good riddance. I just want to make sure that the cowboys are no longer in the NFL.

They're ACTING like a mob. They're ACTING in defiance of the democratic process! They're not innocent victims being unfairly labelled by a power-hungry administration.

Shouting down the opposition and shutting down rational discussion only tears down this country. It doesn't move anybody forward, and it doesn't accomplish anything constructive. It's verbal terrorism.

And what did you say when the Dixie Chicks spoke their mind? Were you among those calling them un-American and calling for a boycott? Unfortunately, this goes both ways.

Yes indeed, i remember being called the same thing when i opposed georgie and his little war for halliburton's profit. Look in the mirror kiddo - the reflection is haunting! If we were unamerican and defectors, then by all means the neocons are at the top of the class on that subject.

You are surely joking. Anyone who had the temerity to say one word questioning King George Bush was routinely demonized as unAmerican or worse. How dare you forget that the Right used those tactics to defend an inherently indefensible assault on the Constitution and the principles which stand at the core of this country!

If you can show me when and where the president said those who oppose are "unpatriotic" or a "mob", then I will give you a million dollars.

I am waiting...and I will check

Well golly....if people protesting President Bush's policies were called unamerican etc., and those opposing President Obama's policies are called unamerican it seems to me that we have bad behavior on both sides. It is completely unacceptable to have goons (from either side) who start physically attacking people who disagree with them.

In other words no one looks very good or smart. Maybe the smart ones are the silent majority and they may be the last word in the next elections.

No! the majority of the electorial college selected OB the majority of the people voted against him the popular vote went to McCain

Where do you come up with your math, Henry? Just what source are you quoting that says the popular vote went to McCain? I'll bet your source is spelled FOX Noise!

Uh, Henry? Are you sure you're not mixing the 2000 elections with the 2008 elections? Hmm?

Me thinks you need to go back to your research and find out where you went wrong.

Maybe it's too late for you? Obama won both the popular AND electoral vote.

More lies, Obama won the popular vote by almost 10 million votes and got 2 out of 3 in the electoral college vote.

Henry, You might want to pick up a newspaper and read it sometime. I can assure you that not only did Obama win the electoral college, he also, overwhelmingly won the the popular vote. Try getting the teabags out of your eyes!

Lol, give me a break Kathy-C, there's another Rally..oops, I mean town hall meeting soon. Let me get this straight. Because the president and members of congress have opinions you seem to think it's the end of life as we know it! how is it that an opinion put this country in deep trouble when an unexplained, un-justified war, a promiscuous ex president, a near collapse of the financial system and CEO's gone wild didn't put this country in such dire straights-what I ask makes Obama's opinion the virtual A-Bomb, come on you can say it, eth-ni-ci-ty!

has anyone, besides me noticed that these people want the country to go back to what the founding fathers established and want us to follow the constitution, but don't know anything about either. Hey, guys...the right to bear arms is not in the constitution...it was added later as an amendment. There are many things that we have and enjoy that are not constitutional. Please educate yourselves before you go to a town hall (or speak on tv) about something you don't have a clue about.

you know i am beginning to realize that there are a LOT of uneducated people out there. they have strong feelings about a topic...abortion, health, guns etc. but they just don't get their facts right about what they are talking about.

i just read a article about beck saying "his nightmare trip through our medical system", now he thinks that it's the best system in the world. (forget the facts)

that seems be to the way they do things..."let me tell you what i want done, dont confuse me with facts or what i said years ago"

all these people forget they are on video...they may forget, but we don't.

Obama and the Democrats have only been in power since January. A lot of the problems we are now cleaning up were caused by the Republicans when they were in power.

Sorry, I don'be belive you are independent or ever voted Democratic, your post contradicts your statement.

Entrepreneur...although I agree with you...that's not the way it is...It's the figurehead that gets the blame....GWB is gone...Obama is our President and whether he caused a problem or not...the owness lies in his lap...

Union...believe what you may, I have nothing to prove to you...I call it as I see it...your presumptive comment is a sad commentary on your inability to see beyond your party...

A lot of the problems we're now clearing up have been around for decades. They just had to get really bad before anybody noticed.

CTDad..You are definitely not an Independent nor a former Democrat.